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mehmet ali talat

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:56 pm

Bananiot wrote: Talk to school kids my friend. Their idea of turkish people will make your hair stand on end. The brain washing that is taking place is out of this world.


Both my kids are weak at school so I help them studying. I do have first hand knowledge about the history books at high school. They are NOT brain washing, nor do they cultivate any hostility against the Turks. For example I remember last year the chapter regarding the education of the GCs during the Ottoman era. There was only one paragraph saying the following:We don't have many sources regarding their education but it seems the priests were teaching the elementaries of writing and reading and the basics of the christian virtue.Those who were interested for further education were going to Constantinople. (Instanbul).
And that was all...

I beleive everything is sentimental and comes from the parents. When they see their mothers crying and telling them that the Turks took their homes and they were living like gypsies in the fields with no food and no money, the kids built hate for those who hurt their mothers. (They don't get as hurt when their fathers tell them though. Ha, ha ha)

However when they hear their parents discussing both periods i.e before the 1974 and after you will be astonished how smart they are and get everything right.

The fact is however that the majority of the GC parents talk only of their own sufferring in 1974 and nothing else. The majority of the GCs do know that the TCs suffered before 1974 but don't know how exactly and to what degree.Many of the details are hidden to us, so between a vague idea of the TC suffering and their own self-experienced suffering in 1974 , guess which one is prevailing.

Can someone tell us how the situation regarding the TC kids is? Is it similar?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:11 pm

Maybe Bananiot considers brain washing the fact that they teach at schools things like the Turkish invasion.

Turks are our enemies. We didn't choose this. We don't want it. But they occupy part of our country and therefore we are forced to see them like this.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:30 pm

Would a Turkish Cypriot who has suffered be justifeid to see the people who perpetuated this as their enemy?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:03 pm

Would a Turkish Cypriot who has suffered be justifeid to see the people who perpetuated this as their enemy?

He would.

Some Turkish Cypriots suffered from some Greek Cypriots, but as I said many times Greek Cypriots suffered a lot more from Turks.

But notice one difference: The word "suffered" is in the past tense.
Both GC and TC suffered, but if we are going to live together and have peace we have to forgive and move ahead.

On the other hand the word "occupies" is in the present tense. If this "occupies" becomes "occupied", then I will be the first who will forgive and hope that Greeks and Turks will from then on be good neighborers and Cypriots live together in peace.
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Postby insan » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:44 pm

Piratis,

If Turkey had withdrawn her troops right after the first phase of the intervention, what probably would happen afterwards?

Moreover, both parties had agreed on to cooperate to find a solution on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federative basis and Turkey declared that when a just, safe, viable, stable setlement reached she would withdrawn her troops..

Though this was Turkish sides demand and accepted by Greek side...


Let's discuss the whole process afterwards 1974 in order to understand what mistakes have been done by all relevant parties; then we can decide whether Turkey is an invader enemy of Cyprus or not...

I have no prejudices regarding the facts... Let's discuss and try to uncover the truth impartialy...

Here's what all I know:

Negotiation for a New Constitution
At the first Geneva Conference on 30th July 1974, Turkey, Greece and the United Kingdom acknowledged the existence in Cyprus of two autonomous administrations representing the Turkish-Cypriots and the Greek-Cypriots respectively, and it was agreed that negotiations should be carried on to secure a workable constitution for Cyprus as a whole. Since then the leaders of the two communities have held frequent talks. In 1978 the Turkish-Cypriots proposed the reopening of the Famagusta suburb of Varosha which contains many hotels and had lain derelict since 1974, provided Nicosia airport was opened to all, but this was rejected.

The Turkish-Cypriots needed a constitution to regulate their political affairs and democratically elected institutions to govern them, and accordingly, on 13th February 1975, they declared Northern Cyprus to be a Federated State, with the intention that it should one day form part of a federal republic for the whole of Cyprus.

However, by November 1983, having failed to reach agreement with the Greek-Cypriots on the creation of a Federal Republic, they declared independence as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. So called TRNC; it was actually an exploitation organization of the so-called TC nationalists. The further developments and facts has shown us that what they name as TRNC and TRNC government was nothing else than a exploitation tool of greedy so-called TC nationalists ...

They nevertheless made it clear that establishment of the Republic does not preclude the creation of a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation for the whole of Cyprus, and this was formally reaffirmed by the Legislative Assembly as recently as 12th March 1985.

The framework for a future political solution based on a federal system of government uniquely structured for the circumstances of Cyprus will be found in the Denktas-Makarios accords of 1977, the Denktas-Kyprianou 10 point agreement of 1979, the UN Secretary-General's "Opening Statement of 1980" and the Secretary-General's 1984 and 1986 draft framework agreements.

The UN Plans
The 1984 draft framework agreement had been prepared by an exhaustive series of talks under the auspices of the Secretary General, and the Turkish-Cypriots were assured by him that the document, dated 27th November 1984, was acceptable to the Greek-Cypriots. On that basis the Turkish-Cypriots agreed to go to the UN to sign it, but when Denktas arrived in New York he found that Kyprianou wished to re-negotiate it.

Kyprianou's announcement at the Summit surprised even his own people, and on his return home a motion censure upon him was passed by the Greek-Cypriot House of Representatives. In the course of the debate Mr. Clerides, leader of the Democratic Rally Party said:

"Right from the first day of the meeting, Kypranou asked for the re-negotiation of everything from A to Z. Among the points he asked to re-negotiate were issues that did not fall within the scope of the Summit, and issues which were already discussed and agreed upon. He should not have brought forth again issues already debated and agreed upon with Denktas."

In the same debate Mr. Papaiannou, Secretary-General of the AKEL party, said: "Kyprianou never adopted the basis of the federation, which was agreed upon by Makarios and Denktas, and Kyprianou never exerted any effort for the solution of the Cyprus problem on the basis of a federation. Kyprianou never respected the Summit agreements."

The Secretary-General resolved to try again, and on 12th April 1985 he prepared a document which he described as a "consolidation" of the 1984 draft. It did however contain major differences, and since it had been negotiated with the Greek-Cypriots alone it was a document different in kind from the draft framework agreements of 1984 and 1986. Denktas rejected it in a letter to the Secretary-General on 8th August 1985 and in the same letter expressed surprise that the document had first come to his attention through the Greek-Cypriot press.

However, after the two rounds of intensive technical talks held separately with both sides at official level in November -- December 1985 and February-March 1986, the Secretary-General on 29th March 1986 presented the two sides with a new "Draft Framework Agreement". He had again laid a compromise position on the table after full consultation with both sides. He had again proposed a solution in the belief that it was acceptable to both sides, and that it formed a framework which dealt with the entirety of the Cyprus problem. He fully understood the interrelated nature of all elements involved and offered the plan as an integrated whole.

The Secretary-General's 1986 plan called for the reunification of Cyprus as a bi-national, bi-zonal federal republic with a Greek-Cypriot President and a Turkish-Cypriot Vice-President, each with defined veto powers over a bi-cameral legislature. The proposals would have reduced the land area under Turkish-Cypriot control from 35.8 % of the island to a little over 29% but they were nevertheless accepted by the Turkish-Cypriots on 21st April 1986.

Kyprianou on the other hand, after consultation with Athens, refused to accept it and rejected the entire draft saying that it had "negative points," and he is once again seeking to re-negotiate. However, the UN Secretary-General made it clear on 11th June 1986 that his proposals took fully into account the concerns of all parties and that he did not intend to take up counter-proposals put forward by Mr. Kyprianou. He called on the Greek-Cypriots to think again.


1986 Denktash agreed to a new altered draft, rejected by Kyprianou. Exposure of Turkish military buildup triggered GC military buildup.

1987 May, EU protocol initialed.

1988 February, Vasiliou elected president. September, direct negotiations begun under UN auspices.

1989 Perez de Cuellar's summary of ideas for the basis of a comprehensive settlement. Vasiliou agreed to ideas as basis for negotiations; rejected by Denktash.. Vasiliou proposals.

1990 February, UN negotiations resumed. March, UN Sec.-Gen. definition of political equality. Talks abandoned because Denktash insisted on a "separate right to self-determination for these two peoples" in contradiction to the 1977 and 1979 agreements. May, TC elections won by Denktash. July, formal application made for EU membership.

1991 High-level meeting planned, Greece & Turkey to be included, but canceled in September due to lack of basic agreement on territory, return of refugees, and sovereignty.

1992 New UN Sec-Gen, Boutrous Ghali, says Cyprus a priority. Talks in NY begin midyear; Boutrous-Ghali "Set of Ideas" for a draft settlement accepted as basis for negotiation by Vasiliou but rejected by Denktash. Third round of talks in October suspended without agreement.

1993 February, Vasiliou loses narrowly to Clerides in runoff presidential election. March, confidence-building measures proposed, with negotiations for implementation to begin in May. Talks resumed; canceled in June when Denktash declined to respond to UN proposals.

1994 February, UN begins proximity talks to negotiate implementation of CBMs following confirmation of acceptance by both sides; disagreement over terms dooms effort.

1995 EU agreement to open accession talks with Cyprus. April, Denktash reelected in second round of voting. October, successful bicommunal events at Ledra Palace - open house on UN's 50th drew over 5,000, more than half were TCs, & bicommunal friendship concert, over 1000 attending.

1996 UN special representative met with leaders of both communities. August, bikers' demonstration on Green Line; two GCs killed.

1997 Clerides orders Russian S-300 missiles; Turkey makes threats against deployment. May, bicommunal concert draws 3,000; protest by a few GCs became violent. July, Clerides, Denktash met for 5 days of UN-sponsored talks in Troutbeck, NY; August meetings in Glion, Switzerland. Further talks canceled after dispute on UN proposals, and Denktash objections to application to join EU.

1998 EU accession negotiations opened. Denktash said that TCs would unite with Turkey if Cyprus joins EU. Formalized association accord signed in 1997; joint economic zone announced. GC election gives narrow victory for Clerides; December, Clerides agrees not to deploy Russian missiles; to be sent to Crete instead.

1999 Earthquakes in Turkey, Greece lead to warming of relations between countries. December, UN-sponsored indirect talks in NY end without progress, but will continue. Turkey given candidate status for EU; must change its relations with Cyprus to achieve full membership.

2000 Negotiations continued without result. Denktash re-elected in disputed process. July reunion of hundreds of former GC & TC villagers at Pergamos. Talks end in November with no progress.

2002-03 UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and Special Representative Alvaro DeSoto present a plan* for the island's partial reunification; both sides essentially reject the Plan.

2003, Spring The Green Line is opened by the Turkish Cypriot administration and the Greek side also allows unfettered access between north and south. Some 2 million people pass across the line during the remainder of 2003 without incident.




Vast majority of Cypriots acknowledge that Denktash is a stubborn, self-seeker, so-called nationalist... but does that mean that all other GC leaders who negotiated for the UN plans were all angels and made no mistakes?

What were GC leaders mistakes in the negotiations process afterwards 1974?
Last edited by insan on Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby metecyp » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:56 pm

Some 2 million people pass across the line during the remainder of 2003 without incident.

I didn't know that there were that many Cypriots! This is misleading. I crossed to the south about 10 times last summer. So does that mean that 10 people crossed to the south? I don't think so.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:13 pm

Piratis, lets talk about this business of Greeks being more victims than Turks.

the Jews have many times in history suffered, not just from Arabs but from other people too. Does this make it ok to shit on the Arabs? Most people would agree that the suffering of the Arabs doesn't equal that of the Jews. Maybe in the last 50 years yes but not over whole of history.

If you are going to use Ottoman rule over Cyprus as a justification can we also go back to pre- Byzantine era and say the Iranians have a case agaisnt Greece because of Alexander the Great? Can you see how silly this is getting.

Are you holding Turkish Cypriots responsible for Ottoman rule? I agree it is not unconnected, after all we wouldn't have been in Cyprus otherwise. I

I think the discussion is in danger of getting silly. In any case it doesn't help move the discussion forward if we only ackowledge our own suffering.

I'll make a bargain with you, lets just agree that both communities have suffered. In 1974 it was mainly Greek Cypriots although Turkish Cypriots also suffer during that period (i.e. mass graves issue from another post). Before that Turkish Cypriots suffered at least as much if not more, although again many Greek Cypriots suffered during that period too.

What makes you think the suffering of Turkish Cypriots stopped in 1974? many people on this forum will give you examples otherwise. In another post I write about how my family both gained and lost and now most of them are not in Cyprus at all. Some of the suffering is caused both by Turkey and by RoC, but I expect you think we deserved it anyway.
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:27 pm

I insist, the brainwashing that takes place in schools is phenomenal. I know, I practically live in schools. I also agree that some of the history books that we got from Greece of Simitis and Papadndreou, are commendable, but do you remember the row that broke out between our edu minister and Greece over one such book? Such was the ferocity of our objections that one of the pages had to be ... ommited. Oh yes, back to the middle ages.

The theory about mothers shaping the characters of kids on this matter is interesting but this is not supported by hard facts. The situation wasn't better before 1974, in fact, it was probably worse, with the old books and all.

If some of you should like to research the matter a bit more, I suggest you get a copy of this year's Greek examination paper for the lyceum 3rd formers (eniaies). It is a monument of nationalist stupidity and the answers the unsuspecting kids are asked to give must stain their subconscious for ever.

Piratis, now, he thinks that approximately we are 6-2 behind on sufferings compared to the TC. So, please dear GC compatriots, let us inflict some more sufferings on you, let us at least claim a draw!
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:34 pm

Since the topic is "mehmet ali talat" I read with interest his views today on the talks in Switzerland. He claims that Papadopoulos never did any negotiations and generally he confirms the reports at the time of independent observers who sited this on numerous occasions. Perhaps one of our TC friends can give us the full text of talat's statement.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:54 am

Let's discuss the whole process afterwards 1974 in order to understand what mistakes have been done by all relevant parties; then we can decide whether Turkey is an invader enemy of Cyprus or not...

And whats your conclusion? That Turkey did not invade Cyprus? :?

Sure, we accepted as a compromise some things. But that doesn't make Turkey innocent!!!!!

If I steal from you half of what you have and police is unable to arrest me, if you agree with me to give you back half of what I stole, would that mean that I am not a thief?

This is the case with Turkey. They invaded and they occupy Cyprus. Being unable to take them out, we agreed to make some compromises. Even if we made no compromise, or if we made and then changed our mind, that doesn't change the fact that Turkey invaded and occupies Cyprus.

the Jews have many times in history suffered, not just from Arabs but from other people too. Does this make it ok to shit on the Arabs? Most people would agree that the suffering of the Arabs doesn't equal that of the Jews. Maybe in the last 50 years yes but not over whole of history.


Mehmet and Bananiot,
I don't know why you wrote that. I clearly said that I am the first who is going to forgive when the occupation ends.
You should tell these things to yourself and to other TC, not to me.
You are the ones who are using the past as an excuse in order to limit our human and democratic rights. If somebody is keeping a score is you, and apparently that 6-2 (according to Bananiot) is not enough for you and you want to make it 10-2.

I'll make a bargain with you, lets just agree that both communities have suffered.


I never claimed the opposite. I just said that during history GC suffered more. Why I said that? Because you use your suffering as an excuse to cause more harm on us and our future generations. I understand that you suffered, but you should understand that we suffered too. So don't ask from us to suffer more in the future. We paid more than enough already. Is democracy and human rights too much to ask for? Do you need to punish us more? I don't want revenge, even from Turkey itself. All I want is an independent, democratic country where human rights are respected. Can you blame me for that?

What makes you think the suffering of Turkish Cypriots stopped in 1974?

I don't think it stopped. But after 1974 you can not blame us or RC for your suffering.

we also go back to pre- Byzantine era and say the Iranians have a case agaisnt Greece because of Alexander the Great?

Are you Iranian? Yes, Greeks invaded persia (and I am not going to call it "peace operation"), but the Persians had invaded Greece as well. Whats important is that today Persia does not occupy any part of Greece, and Greece does not occupy any part of Persia.

I do not want to go back to the Ottomans or the Byzantines etc. If it makes you feel better, I will even say that TC and GC suffered in an equal degree. So can we just stop the suffering now and start something in the correct way? Or we are going to keep looking in the past for excuses to harm each other again?
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