Cyprus-Forum.com

[iskismet]

It is interesting, is it not, that any facts put up on this forum that do not agree with the GC point of view are lies!

How can it be that a Greek Cypriot 'truth' is the only truth?

Could I suggest that until we resolve that conundrum the Cyprus 'problem' will never come to an end.

No doubt Mr P will have something to say about that!!!!!

[Chrisswirl]

Apparently the very "objective" iskismet is very moved by the deaths of some TCs, but doesn't give a shit about the 10 times as many dead and missing from our side.

Piratis re! Listen to yourself. You are suggesting that firstly Iskismet doesn't have the right to be moved by the death of "some Turkish Cypriots" as you put it, and secondly you forget, ANY death is a bad death. And deaths happened on both sides. Every single Cypriot death should be mourned and if I was president, I'd make a large memorial in both Greek and Turkish to those who died pre and during 1974, with a message of peace and the wish for this never, ever to happen again. I would place this memorial on the Green line, perhaps in the area where Ledra Street is currently divided (of course after opening Ledra Street).

I do not agree that the Turkish invasion was a peace operation, no "peace operation" creates 200,000 refugees. But the attacks on the Turkish Cypriot enclaves were not peaceful either. So no one was peaceful. Let's stop looking back and look forward, under a unified Republic of Cyprus.

[Piratis]

How can it be that a Greek Cypriot 'truth' is the only truth?

How can it be that a Turkish Cypriot 'truth' is the only truth?

Chrisswirl, if you are moved only by the deaths of one side, like it seems the case with iskismet, then you are racist, and this is what I wanted to point out.

[insan]

No i am very sorry, but this is not so. The ones who participated at the coup at the presidential palace were two squadrons of tanks and some selected commandos. Total of about 300 people. Paramilitary groups supporting the coupists were also trying to get control all over the island. So in this respect yes we had some hudreds dead and missing from the coup thats true.

However those who fought against the Turkish Invasion were 12,000 soldiers of National Guard +1000 soldiers of ELDYK + the paramilitarists Eoka b etc+ reservists.

Do you mean 12.000 soldiers of National Guard and 950(Who knows most probably more) Eldik soldiers couldn't stop those 300 commandos and Eoka-B paramilitaries or they were together actually. Under whose command were National Guard and Eldik after 15th of July and even since 1962-3?



Makarios writes General Ghizikis, July 1974

One of the alleged triggers for the coup against Makarios was his insistence that the Greek troops be removed from Cyprus. This letter to the Apresident@ of Greece is frequently cited as one of the provocations to the Athens military junta.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nicosia, 2nd July 1974




"The National Guard, which is officered and controlled by Greek officers, was from the start the main supplier of both men and materials to "EOKA B", the members of which euphemistically called themselves "Enosists" and the "Enosist Array".

On many occasion I considered the question why an illegal nationally damaging organisation, which divides and causes internal dissension, splits the internal front, and leads the Greek Cypriots to civil war in Cyprus, is supported by Greek officers. On many an occasion I have also considered the question whether this support is approved by the Greek Government. I had a number of thoughts and reflections in order to find a logical answer to my doubts and to my questions. No answer under any circumstances or reflections could he supported on a logical basis. But the Greek Officers' support of "EOKA B" is in reality an undeniable fact. The National Guard camps in various places and their surrounding areas are decorated with pro-Grivas and pro-" EOKA B" slogans and with slogans against the Cyprus Government and especially against me. Greek Officers make propaganda in favour of "EOKA B" within the camps of the National Guard, openly. It is also known and it is an undeniable fact that the opposition press, which supports the criminal activities of "EOKA B", is financed by Athens, and is guided and takes its line from the persons in charge of the 2nd Bureau of the General Staff and the Greek Central Information Office (KYP) in Cyprus"


http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/makarios ... izikis.htm

All the reservists were unarmed though and very soon abandoned the effort together with many soldiers who realised the whole thing was a setup.The ones who lost their lives are all sorts of people including civilians. Finally the Turkish Invasion left 6000 GC dead, and about 1600 missing.

GOC spokesman first stated that the missings were 2400 right after the events of 74 then it was reduced to 1900, then 1600 plus and finally in 2000 officially reduced 1492 and a list of missings has given UN. I don't know about what were the positions of reservist... but according to www.hellas.org intervention timeline so many civilians took whatever fire armes they had and shot so many Turkis soldiers and TCs.

And that number excludes those who died or got missed from the coup period.

What's the number of them? Have RoC finally made it public?

And if those people were not defending their country and their families during the Invasion, what were they defending, Afganistan or Korea?

If they were defending their country and their families; 12.000 National Guard soldiers and 950?? ELDIK soldiers could easily defeat those 300 terrorists and protect the democratic order of RoC. Or couldn't they?


Sorry brother...

[iskismet]

Chrisswirl

I believe the Turks did go in legally (treaty guarantors) but that they were waiting for the chance which was handed to them on a plate.

Ideally the Turks should have done the job properly and put the existing democratically elected government back in power - and then when all was stable they should have left. It is at that stage it became illegal but you also have to take into account the circumstances at the time.

Firstly how many soldiers and civilians would have been killed if they had tried to reinstate the government? Remember enosis was massively supported at that time, and all sections of the Greek Cypriot community quite rightly joined forces in fighting for their country.

And secondly, how could anyone guarantee the killing of the TCs wouldn't start again once they left.

But as you say, we should all be looking forward, whichever way it goes.

[MicAtCyp]

However you interpret it - the killing has stopped.

It could have stopped in many other brutal and inhumane ways. You cannot call those ways "peace operations"!!!
If you want me to be specific in what other brutal and inhumane ways it could have stopped from a GC "peace" operation I can tell you.....

Second you seem to base your position for partition to the fact that "since we do have peace" why not continue the same way. Piratis already told you we do not have peace. We have a situation which can explode to war any day. There are serious pending matters between us. ...

The TCs have indicated they would be willing to give up some of the occupied land - and as far as I can see that was probably the intention as far back as 1974.

This is theoretical. In practice they are unable to do it. The only thing they can return is the barbed area of Famagusta, which is just a small percentage of the total.We managed to get into the EU with lots of sacrifices and taxes (estimated at about 3 billion pounds) we got nothing from the EU back and even the financial aid is going to the TCs. What gesture of good will did we see in return? Did we see the handling of the ghost town of Famagusta to its refugee inhabitants?
Moreover pay special attention to that some of the occupied land. From the very moment one might say OK lets discuss it, politically the Cyprus problem is finished and the occupied areas get recognition. The only thing remaining is the discussion of this "some" which might well end up one day to zero.

Are 200000 people still permanent refugees?
Where do they live? Do they have homes?

Once you become a refugee you are a refugee all your life. You are a group of people who starts from zero and it may take centuries to come to the level of the rest. (Blacks in the USA are such a group that started from zero 400 years ago and are still very much behind the rest). Among those 200K about half of them still live in refugee tiny buildings. My brother with his wife and two sons were living until recently at a 36 square meters refugee flat!!!! This is the size they get for a family of four.(if he had a daughter and a son instead of 2 sons they would give him an extra tiny room of 2.5X2.5). In Nicosia you may ask to see the Stovolos2 Refugee camp, the Kokkines, the Aspres etc....Go in there and you will see a lot of misery beleive me.

I have travelled a lot in Cyprus on holiday and business - I have not seen anything like this number.

Thats because you saw only the showcase.

PS. Like I said an agreement for partition is totally theoretical.Nobody, not even the president has any right from any law to proceed to such a thing. For example in 1974 when the Turks were occupying much less than the final 37% they called Klerides and asked him to sign it or they would take more. Klerides said I CANNOT SIGN, I cannot take up such responsibility. Although he knew they would take more....

[MicAtCyp]

Where are these 200000 permanent refugees?

Sorry we did not leave them living in tents for 30 years for you to look and enjoy.The fact is they are still refugees in their own country though, and nobody can deprive them their right to return to their homes and regain what they were forcibly deprived. My wife is one of them!

It is interesting, is it not, that any facts put up on this forum that do not agree with the GC point of view are lies!

Where did you see that? One side of the truth according to you is a lie?

On 11 May 1964, a car, carrying three Greek army officers and a Greek-Cypriot policeman, was driven into the Turkish-Cypriot walled city of Famagusta. Turkish-Cypriot policemen signalled the car to stop as it approached an exit gate. The occupants of the car fired at the Turk-Cypriot policemen and their fire was returned. Two of the Greek officers and the Greek-Cypriot policeman were killed; the third Greek officer was wounded; a Turk-Cypriot bystander was killed in the cross-fire.

And I already proved to you that Patrics report is a copy of the TC version of the events. The so called policeman was not a policeman but the son of a policeman namely the son of Kyriakides Police officer from Nicosia.The so called greek officers did not have it written on their forehead that they were Greek officers.The fact that they were all killed except one who got seriously injured whereas none of your so called police (what police- the TMT is called police now?) was hurt, proves they were unarmed.
You are lowering yourself too much Erol.Sorry I am not going to follow you.You may continue freely the repeatition of your one sided stories.

Your response to my aunts story is as though you think my uncle deserved to die. As though his killing was justifed because some GC died before - despite the fact he was nothing to do with those deaths and the killers knew that.

What do you mean "as though"? Are you sure that was my intention?
Didn’t I mention that the whole GC community in Famagusta including my late father in Law who knew your uncle personally felt terribly sorry and ashamed of his death? What else would you like me to do? Start crying for each and everyone of your dead, and for each one of our 6000 dead and the 1600 missing and the thousands of GC virgin girls raped and, and, and.....If the point of your story was the feeling of sorrow then I would tell you that I am sorry.But he point/s of your story were not that and you yourself clarified your points later, remember?An example follows:

My POINT was that for such people the events of 74 were necessary. They did not want partition.

Partition is what they wanted allright and partition is what they actually want until today.See what your ambassador Iskismet says. The events of 1974 were necessarry??? I could equally say that "fear" could have ended in a similar barbaric way by other events prior to 1974 like the proposed actions of many Junta Greek generals prior to 1974, to which Makarios replied "I cannot take such an action that would cause the death of so many innocent people".So don't repeat me that "peace crap" of iskismets, because you know damn well there are many ways to achive that kind of "peace" one of which is to end up all people in a cementary.

They wanted to live free of fear and in peace in their own land. The RoC failed to provide this - year after year.

And of course your leaders and the directions from Ankara had nothing to do with that fear, only the GC extremists had....

Or maybe only the total removal of all TC from Cyprus would have made her feel safe?

How about the disarmament of Cyprus?

My POINT was that for these TC this fear did not end till 74.

And your point is wrong because ever since 1972 most TC returned from the enclaves to their villages.

Insan I answered to your argument that

Those who were killed by Turks in the combat were mainly the ones who made the coup and defending the coupists. They were neither defending the democratic order of their country nor the lives of Cypriots.

And I told you this is wrong. The compat with the Invadors happened AFTER the coup.They coup and the invasion were two totally separate compats. In the first one the ones who participated were "selected". In the second one everybody participated! The National Guard soldiers the Eldyk soldiers etc were young men doing their regular military service, like they do today and like your own young men do today in your army.Those who participated to the coup were a small portion carefully selected from that total.Those who participated to the compat against the Invadors were EVERYBODY.
Then you seemed to be confused of what was the National Guard.Yes the high ranking officers (5% of the total force) were paid Army professionals.The rest however were plain soldiers our own children who when become 18 years old are oblidged to do their 2 year military service.
How can you claim that those who got killed in compat with the Turks were specifically the coupists??? I told you those who fough against the Invadors were ALL the people united. I really cannot understand how you came up to your conclussion.....

I don't even know what to guess. Did you for example assume that the National Guard was and is manned with paid professionals? The answer is no, the officers (about 5% of the national Guard) are paid professionals the rest 95% are our children who when getting 18 are oblidged to serve in the army.
Really don't know what else to guess, anyway, If you mind explaining me how you came to that conclussion I will be more than happy to clarify the matter for you.

GOC spokesman first stated that the missings were 2400 right after the events of 74 then it was reduced to 1900, then 1600 plus and finally in 2000 officially reduced 1492 and a list of missings has given UN. I don't know about what were the positions of reservist

About the number of missing persons from 1974 until today yes the number was reduced because in the meantime some were verified dead-many of them from the coup period-, and even some were verified alive.I even heard a case of a married GC with 3 children who was reported missing whereas they eventually discovered he got the opportunity to abandon his family in 1974 and go away with his TC mistress!
If you examine the catalogue of dead and missing persons you will see that more than half are civilians including many women and children.Among them there are also 2 infants!

[insan]

I don't even know what to guess. Did you for example assume that the National Guard was and is manned with paid professionals? The answer is no, the officers (about 5% of the national Guard) are paid professionals the rest 95% are our children who when getting 18 are oblidged to serve in the army.
Really don't know what else to guess, anyway, If you mind explaining me how you came to that conclussion I will be more than happy to clarify the matter for you.

Re birader MicAtCyp...


Both National Guard and ELDIK were under command of Greek officers, weren't they? EOKA-B and coupists were also under command of Greek officers weren't they? So how can you put them seperate?


All of them were children of some human beings... Some of them were the Enosist commanders and the rest of the soldiers were either voluntarily giving support to Enosists or by enforcement... I have no idea what was the percentage of the ones that didn't support enosists but obliged to take side with them. I only knew that the leftists were against both Enosis and Taksim...


If ELDIK and National Guard didn't support the coupists why couldn't they stop them overthrowing Makarios? The combat at Presidential Palace of Makarios lasted hours... Did the chief of National Guard or ELDIK give an ultimatum to Sampson to surrender with his thugs?


They were all together... All high ranked soldiers of National, Guard, ELDIK, Governmental wing of Enosis, cadres, priests... ALL..


Of coarse those who had to obbey orders of their commanders had nothing to do under those circumstances.

[MicAtCyp]

Re birader,
Are you talking about the coup or the Invasion?
About the coup I already told you the ones who did it were selected.
I really cannot understand what you say.

[PEACE]

And if those people were not defending their country and their families during the Invasion, what were they defending, Afganistan or Korea?

Turkey came to island in lawful quarantor status and she was not an enemy to be fight against! So what are you talking about? I'm not talking about second part of intervention.