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Some predictions, perceptions and interpretations...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:03 pm

Piratis, the danger of not letting Turkey into the EU is that you may isolate Turkey and push her toward nationalism and away from the West. I would say to accept Turkey into the EU as a sign of goodwill; it may push the Cyprus process on a stage. Certainly, a European Turkey is a good thing. And the Cyprus problem would have to be solved by the time Turkey enters for real, otherwise it would be occupying EU territory as an EU member state.


Well, I disagree with this approach. Pushing them away from the west, into Islam and nationalism is actually much better. Only in this way they will sooner or later be part of the losers of a major war and be forced to leave from Cyprus.

If they stop the occupation then of course we would want them as friends and not enemies, and their EU accession would be more than desirable. Unfortunately we are not the ones to decide if we would be enemies or not. They are, and since they choose to be our enemies we should treat them as such.
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Postby Chrisswirl » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:30 pm

erolz wrote:Like when Papadopolous tells journalists that 'not a single TC was killed between 64-74'?


Yes. Papadopolous is an idiot.
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Postby Bananiot » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:34 pm

Here is the lead comment of today's Cyprus Mail, one of the few serious newspapaers of the banana republic.

Partition the only solution?

PRESIDENT PAPADOPOULOS’ speech to the UN General Assembly on Thursday must have dispelled some of the confusion his constantly changing and self contradictory statements have given rise to. At least this time he made it as clear as a man for whom legalistic subterfuge is the preferred form of communication could that he considers the Annan plan to have been consigned to the scrap-heap of history. Any small, lingering doubts about his intention to see off the plan for good were finally put to rest on Thursday.

He used the Assembly platform to rubbish the plan one more time, dismissing it as “inadequate” because it “fell short of the minimum expectations from a settlement” of the Greek Cypriots. It was not the product of negotiations “nor did it constitute an agreed solution between the parties”, but its provisions “have been dictated by the interests of third parties.” The people who would have to live with the solution were in the best position to judge what was suitable for them and they had given their verdict on the Annan plan. End of story.

In short, the president has told the international community and the UN that they can forget any idea of bringing back this settlement plan. His speech was also a clear message to his Greek Cypriot critics who wanted to know what changes he wanted to make to the plan in order for him to accept it. As most people had suspected, no amount of changes would make it palatable to him as he objects to its whole philosophy. Ironically his government backers AKEL had been claiming that they were engaged in consultations with the president in order to decide the changes to the plan that they would be seeking in future negotiations.

All these games will have to stop as we now know where the president stands regarding the Annan plan. His stand has also put paid to any idea of a new initiative by the UN in the foreseeable future, as this was conditional on acceptance of the basic philosophy of the plan and only minimal changes being made to it. With the EU unwilling to undertake any initiative – the Commission has repeatedly expressed its support for a solution based on the plan – the maintenance of the status quo appears to be guaranteed. There may be a little trade across the Green Line and people will continue to cross from one side to the other, but the division will remain.

We are back to square one. The solution of the Cyprus problem will once again be consigned to the realm of theoretical abstraction, legalistic discourse and unattainable targets as it had been for the three decades following the invasion. Papadopoulos showed his intentions in his speech by reverting to the meaningless diplomacy of high-principled rhetoric of the past, about international legality and single sovereignty, which leads nowhere. It is the rhetoric of nebulous ideas, of no practical import other than to make mediocre and ineffective politicians look clever and principled to the voters.

For three decades, our political leaders were able to hide behind these lofty principles and the unattainable targets they had set thanks to the Turkish side’s unwillingness to negotiate a solution. On the one occasion there was a settlement proposal it was the Greek Cypriots who rejected it, partly because it was nowhere close to the type of settlement their leaders had been promising, for 30 years, to deliver. And now we will be served the same empty promises about a “European solution” and the restoration of human rights for another 30 years. Cyprus problem rhetoric is a big industry and has helped advance the careers of all our leading politicians.

Admittedly, the politicians peddle the cost-free, theoretical dimension of the national problem that leads nowhere because the majority of Greek Cypriots, contrary to what Papadopoulos told the UN General Assembly, are not keen on re-unification and sharing power with the Turkish Cypriots. Neither is Papadopoulos, for whom the main condition for a solution must be the preservation of the Republic of Cyprus in its present form, because he was given a state and will not hand over a community. With EU membership, the legal status of the Republic was guaranteed, which was why we should be looking for a different type of settlement, he concluded and invited Turkey to join him in finding a solution based on this new reality.

This is a big gamble, based on the hope that Turkey would have to make more concessions on a Cyprus solution during its accession negotiations with the EU. Hope is the main basis of the gamble, which is in keeping with the policy followed on the Cyprus problem for the last 30 years. This would allow our politicians to continue taking principled stands in international forums and give lessons to the rest of the world about double standards and respect for human rights. It might eventually yield a solution, but there is a big possibility that it would be partition. This may be the solution that the Greek Cypriot people -- not to mention our politicians who, until then, could churn out familiar, high-sounding rhetoric -- would be happiest with.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:37 pm

Here is the lead comment of today's Cyprus Mail, one of the few serious newspapaers of the banana republic.


And which is the other one? Politis? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:51 pm

It always amazes me how the arguments end up going on about the past.

People have to start looking beyond the end of their noses and look at the bigger picture.

The fact remains, that the 'development' of the north is based on criminality. It is criminals making the money and lining their own pockets. It does not help the TC's, it certainly doesn't help the GC's and we all end up being loosers in the end. I want to know how 2bn dollars worth of property sales has enhanced the lot of the ordinary TC in the street.

I genuinely feel that the future of Cyprus is in the hands of the TC's. The GC's can do little to stop what is happening in the north. If the TC's want a solution, they have to sort out the mess that is going on under their noses first.

Eventually, contrary to what many of you may think, and assuming Turkey does get a date for entry talks with the EU, then be in no doubt that Turkey will begin to pay a heavy price for the occupation of Cyprus for so many years.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:58 pm

assuming Turkey does get a date for entry talks with the EU, then be in no doubt that Turkey will begin to pay a heavy price for the occupation of Cyprus for so many years.


I listen to this argument all the time. Can you please explain how Turkey will pay a heavier price if it does get 'the date', than if it does not get the date?

Personally I believe the cost for Turkey will be 100x if it does not get the date.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:13 pm

The cost will be greater, because Turkey has to show that it is a country that is governed by law. It has to show that it respects what the EU stands for. It may seem that things would be better for us if Turkey is left out, but on the contrary, it will actually do the opposite.

Bringing Turkey into the fold would have to force Turkey to abide by the rules and in effect it would have to compromise over Cyprus. You cannot have a country that is half occupied by another country which has to negotiate important provisions of the Accession Treaty with the country it has invaded and continues to occupy. It just doesn't make sense. Each and every one of the 30 or so provisions that will make up this treaty has to be individually negotiated and each one of these provisions must be voted in unanimity by all member states.
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:48 pm

-mikkie2- wrote: It always amazes me how the arguments end up going on about the past.

People have to start looking beyond the end of their noses and look at the bigger picture.


By reffering to the 'crimiality' of property sales in the North are you not just 'going on about the past'?

-mikkie2- wrote:The fact remains, that the 'development' of the north is based on criminality.


That is your view, based on acts that you deem a 'crime' that occured over 30 years ago. Those responsible for this 'crime' are not those that are developing or selling property now.

-mikkie2- wrote:It is criminals making the money and lining their own pockets. It does not help the TC's, it certainly doesn't help the GC's and we all end up being loosers in the end. I want to know how 2bn dollars worth of property sales has enhanced the lot of the ordinary TC in the street.


In what sense do you brand those developing poroperty as 'crimilnals'. Because the TRNC 'stole' land from GC 30 years ago then those that subsequently _purchased_ this land, developed it and sold it are also criminals? The property boom in the North has both positive and negative effcts on TC (in the street or otherwise). The fact is the property boom is providing employment. Not just in the building trade but in many associated areas - from estate agents to 'services' compnaies to local shops that sever the new residence buying these properties. You _want_ to believe that there is no benefit to 'ordinary' TC because that suits your agenda. The reality is that the boom _does_ benefit ordinary TC. It also has it's negative impact on them like devlopment anywhere. The benefits it brings are so much more important because of the embargoes on other forms of econmimc activity in the North.

-mikkie2- wrote:I genuinely feel that the future of Cyprus is in the hands of the TC's. The GC's can do little to stop what is happening in the north. If the TC's want a solution, they have to sort out the mess that is going on under their noses first.


The TRNC adminstration is looking at measure to 'slow' the property boom in the North, balancing the needs of economic development with other issues. The 'mess' going on under our noses is no different from the same 'mess' that the RoC had and has going on under it's nose, except for the issue of 'ownership' of land. The future of Cyprus is in the hands of all Cypriots. It may make you feel better to say that it's all the responsibility and fault of TC but it does little to towards actualy finding a solution.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:14 pm

And what is my agenda Erol?

You have got to be kidding me that the ordinary TC is benefiting. How many people are bought in from Turkey to work on costruction projects in the north? And who is actually making the money? Its mostly Turks from Turkey. The benefits the TC's get are getting are at the periphery of this massive industry that is going on at the moment.

Who is actually buying and selling the land? There are many criminals wanted by the police that are living in north Cyprus making millions of pounds off our backs. You must be naive to not think that this sort of thing is not going on. The money is being taken out of Cyprus just as quickly as it is being made.

In the south at least the business is legal. Stolen property is not being bought and sold. The property boom in the south is not just attributable to selling property to foreigners. The vast majority is bought and sold by ordinary Cypriots. And construction standards are far higher in the south. I wonder how good the quality of construction is compared to the south.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:43 pm

In what sense do you brand those developing poroperty as 'crimilnals'. Because the TRNC 'stole' land from GC 30 years ago then those that subsequently _purchased_ this land, developed it and sold it are also criminals?


Yes they are. In Greek is called κλεπταποδόχος, (translated as "fence" but I am not sure if this is the exact translation), which is also a crime.

If I steal something from you and I sell it to somebody else then this somebody else if there was no way to know that the product was stolen he will simply loose his money. If he knew that the product was stolen then not only he will loose his money but he will end up in jail as well because he knowingly accepted to buy something that was stolen.
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