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Minority

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby erolz » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:59 pm

Piratis wrote: So, (to make it clear for Erolz), when you bargain with me, you bargain with the "full price". The other "price" as described in the above link is either take it or leave it (just minor adjustments). So you can choose if you want to bargain with the "full" price, or simply accept the "minimum price".


You bargain like a true Greek ;)
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Postby Piratis » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:28 am

As MicAtCyp said, TCs are not separate "peoples". The fact that you claim the opposite and then at the same time you talk about unity is hypocrisy.

Anyways, as I said is all a matter of balance of power. Just remember this when the wheel will turn. It is a sad fact but if you play this game on us, we have no choice to play it too. You want to win on our loss, we will do our best to win on your loss.

We could come to an agreement with human rights and democracy as a basis that would benefit all of us, but you don't want. I hope one day you will realize that this is a game you can not win, and make some real compromises like we did.

You bargain like a true Greek


I don't like to bargain. This is why I cut the crap and move directly to the minimum I can accept. (that post was posted long long time ago)Unfortunately you start bargaining on this minimum. But bargaining means give and take. Since there is nothing left to give from the minimum, I am forced to move to the maximum where this bargaining can take place. If you start thinking with the minimum in mind you will see that what I propose is something acceptable to you. (notice: I say acceptable, not ideal. You should just forget about the ideal like we did)
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Postby Aris » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:48 am

ahem ... this is the 16th page of this thread and it is already way off topic.
I believe the position of everybody is pretty clear. I will not lock this thread (yet) in case somebody really really has to say something more and he/she really really has to do it in this thread.
More narrowly focused threads with fewer posts are much better than this. :wink:
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Postby erolz » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:06 am

Piratis wrote:As MicAtCyp said, TCs are not separate "peoples". The fact that you claim the opposite and then at the same time you talk about unity is hypocrisy.


With respect to aris I will make my final comment in this thread.

So finally Piratis you say it. TC are not a seperate 'people' in your view.

We meet all the criteria of a 'people'. This was agreed in 1960. If you wish to 'go back' and renegotiate this then you can not also argue that there is a Cyrpus state - the only other definition of a 'people' (in regards to human rights), as the only state of Cyprus that has existed was based on this principal of two seperate peoples. If you can not and will not accept that the TC are a 'people' then there is no hope that the two seperate people that exist today can someday become one people. This is not hypocrasy at all. It is the reality. There are two peoples on Cyprus. If they can learn to live togeather with mutual respect (which requires them to accept their respective status as a people) then there is no hope that the two can become one.

In my view you talk unity but what you want is not unity, it is to get back what you lost in 74. If you can do that without unity you would be satisfied. If unity is a means to get what you want then you will talk unity but unity is not in your heart and once you have what you want then unity will no longer be a burning desire or concern for you. This is my assesment of your position. It may be wrong, it may be unfair - but it is the one YOU have created in my mind by your postings and your attitude.
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Postby insan » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:34 am

Let me dedicate a song to all Cypriots and put a full stop to this thread.


Brothers in Arms

These mist covered mountains
Are a home now for me
But my home is the lowlands
And always will be
Some day you'll return to
Your valleys and your farms
And you'll no longer burn
To be brothers in arm

Through these fields of destruction
Baptism of fire
I've watched all your suffering
As the battles raged higher
And though they did hurt me so bad
In the fear and alarm
You did not desert me
My brothers in arms

There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones

Now the sun's gone to hell
And the moon's riding high
Let me bid you farewell
Every man has to die
But it's written in the starlight
And every line on your palm
We're fools to make war
On our brothers in arms


Dire Strits - 1985


Please don't let your national aspirations, fears, anger and hatred take you under control... Don't forget that we are children of the same God. :)
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Postby Piratis » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:38 am

We meet all the criteria of a 'people'. This was agreed in 1960.

Sure, you are people, nobody said you are animals. But in 1960 it is well known what we agreed and if you want to return to those agreements absolutely no problem with me.

In my view you talk unity but what you want is not unity, it is to get back what you lost in 74.

So, after all this, your conclusion is that I am asking from you to return to what we have until 74? Anyways ...

What I want is clear: Respect to human rights and an independent democratic country that will help Cypriots achieve prosperity, dignity and happiness. Some of these can partly be sacrificed based on the 'realities' but some can not. I believe I was clear.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:42 am

Don't forget that we are children of the same God

yeah, only God can save us (and since there is no God ...)
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:29 pm

Bananiot wrote: Papadopoulos won them over by promising that he would never agree to a federal solution.


When did he promise that?????? Give us a link.

Bananiot wrote: After the referendum, they officially left DISI and formed their own party.

LOL!!! Ricos, Prodromou and Matsis were Eoka-bs??? Just because they supported No to the referendum?

Bananiot wrote: a group of "Chrisi Avgi" fanatics appeared shouting chauvinistic slogans of the type "I want to drink turkish blood". Well, nobody seemed to mind. AKEL said nothing, all kept their mouth shut. The only political leader that issued a strong worded announcement to condemn the fascists was Anastasiades!


Papadopoulos was the first to condemn them in the most ironical manner and on the spot. He said: Those "Misters" think they are patriots....

Look my friend I don't mean to sound a supporter of Papadopoulos or anything, I happen to beleive we were always governed by a banch of crooks and it is very unlikely that Papadopoulos is less of a crook than the rest. Papadopoulos surely works for the interests of a strong economic group of crooks, but what I always ask myself is which one is it? Most of the economic interests are inside DESY, some in EDEK , and some in AKEL and some in DEKO and some everywhere.

I suspect Papadopoulos is working for the Interests of the Bankers and the priests. . It just happens that the interests of these 2 groups are in line with the interests of the majority of the GCs including the members of AKEL (although they don't admit it publicly...

If my suspicion is correct will show during the next developments, propably around September or October..... Please remember two words. Bankers and Priests.
If you see those interests getting secured be sure the solution is coming.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:16 am

Apologies Aris, (for me been always late), I just saw this statement of Erol and I want to reply before you lock this thread.

Erol wrote: Micatcyp (from memory - appologies if my memory is wrong) has previously stated on another forum words to the effect that if the GC had no lost properties and the TC had no sanctions against them - then there would never be a united Cyprus. I


No Erol, I never said that! In fact the conclusion after it cannot fit in my logic.Thinking about it none of the 2 "if statements" fits in my logic either, I don't agree there are "sactions", and I don't agree there is anything imposed on the "TCs" as individuals. Someone else must have said it, most propably at a forum that I don't participate, as I have a very good memory regarding "interesting" statements of others.

Erol wrote: as the only state of Cyprus that has existed was based on this principal of two seperate peoples.


Wrong! It was based on the Principle of one People the people of Cyprus consisting of 2 communities.Inside the GC community there were 3 minorities(Maronites Armenians and Latins) and inside the TC community one minority (the tzigane having Spanish roots).
You cannot tell me the Armenians are GCs Erol, can you? Different culture different roots different history different roots different language etc etc... Even Turkey respected the fact that the Maronites are not GCS but are people of Cyprus thats why they did not throw them out of their villages and were always allowed to travel freely and stay in the occupied areas.
And therefore sorry Erol but all your conclusions after it are based on a wrong assumption, and thus are wrong by definition.

Erol wrote: In my view until this desire for unity is stronger in a majority of cypriots from both sides than any other desires they have then any settlement, no matter how carefully bargined, no matter how based on declarations of human rights or not, or on international norms or not, is doomed to fail.


This has always been your position. Please start a new thread on it so we can reply specifically.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:34 pm

Well I think I found what I said.

People are people Erol not ideal Angels.You suffer economically we suffer from our losses and lack of land.This is what pushes us towards a solution.Delete any of the two and there is no solution. On the other hand it is obvious that unless the RoC closes her eyes a bit and allows the TCs to get some economic breath, they will all emmigrate and be replaced by settlers. Everybody knows that, and thats why Talat says "Nothing can replace the benefits of a solution". He knows exactly what is the maximum you can get as long as the illegal occupation continues.It is between zero and something that can be cut any minute.


And heres Erols interpretation.

Erol wrote: Micatcyp (from memory - appologies if my memory is wrong) has previously stated on another forum words to the effect that if the GC had no lost properties and the TC had no sanctions against them - then there would never be a united Cyprus.


A difference in wavelengths?

PS. Like I said we can discuss the whole matter in another thread if anyone is interested.
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