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Demographics and population of Cyprus in regard of settlers

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:52 pm

Erolz, we all understand that settlers are also humans looking for a better life.
But so are the soldiers. If they invade your country, you have to shout and kill them, not because they are personally guilty, they are just obeying orders, but you have to protect yourself and your country.

We are not blaming settlers personally, they might be the best humans in the world, but Cyprus is our country, and they don't belong here.

As in the case of soldiers when their country sends them to invade another country (e.g. USA-> Vietnam) and those soldiers get killed, the defending country can not be held responsible for their deaths. Also, the defending country will not pay to support the families that those soldiers left behind.

The case of settlers is similar. We understand that they are humans too, but we have to protect ourselves and our country. Turkey is the guilty party, they shouldn't bring them here in the first place, and therefore Turkey should take them back and take care of them.
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Postby erolz » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:43 pm

Piratis wrote:Erolz, we all understand that settlers are also humans looking for a better life.
But so are the soldiers. If they invade your country, you have to shout and kill them, not because they are personally guilty, they are just obeying orders, but you have to protect yourself and your country.


well actually my personal view is that is not what you have to do (kill invaders). Personally I am a 'disciple' of Mathatma Gahndi's theory of passive resitance to oprression and invasion, but that is not really the issue here.

Piratis wrote:We are not blaming settlers personally, they might be the best humans in the world, but Cyprus is our country, and they don't belong here.


but 'legal' immigrants do 'belong here'?

Piratis wrote:As in the case of soldiers when their country sends them to invade another country (e.g. USA-> Vietnam) and those soldiers get killed, the defending country can not be held responsible for their deaths. Also, the defending country will not pay to support the families that those soldiers left behind.

The case of settlers is similar. We understand that they are humans too, but we have to protect ourselves and our country. Turkey is the guilty party, they shouldn't bring them here in the first place, and therefore Turkey should take them back and take care of them.


But the settlers were no soliders?

Just exactly what 'threat' do you think these innocent settlers represent to the RoC?

Can there really be no room from Cypriots (on both sides) to show some magnamity in their regard? Would not such an effort to accept and integrate and welcome these unfortuante people, regardless of how they came to be here not represent a great signal of hope for all Cypriots? Do they really represent such a danger to Cyprus that you imply?
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Postby insan » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:10 am

erolz,

Cyprus is a small Island which even cannot afford for its own people... Why do you think all those TCs and GCs obliged to leave their homeland and went abroad?

Find a fair formula which at first embraces TCs who obliged to immigarte and GCs who temporarily obliged to abandon their properties in North for security reasons then ask people to think about settlers humanely ...

But priorly you have to embrace real children of Cyprus then the settlers.... Do you know how much it costs? As a humane person you are, are you ready to donate at least half of your income for the sake of those badly affected people.


Let's say a relevant law had been approved by the united Cyprus parliamentary and it orders that "The TCs who have x amount of income and at x valued property, shall pay 1/2 of their total incomes for the rehabilitation of the Turkish settlers..."


Would you, your family and all others who have that certain amount of goods ever accept such a law?

So what you are trying to tell us? Please be honest... We have over 600.000 TCs that obliged to migrate abroad due to paramilitary organizations oppression in 1955-74 period and oppressions of Denktash regime in 1974-2004 period...

Have you ever felt their pain? Have you ever bring a lawsuit to the responsibles of this crime of humanity?

Have you ever written a reproachment letter to Denktash or Eroglu and asked why have they brought ten thousands of settlers to the North while TCs suffering of uneployment?

Do you think settlers have been ill-treated by vast majority of TCs?

No my friend! The ones; those so-called nationalists have brought them into North and use them as vote machines and as cheap labourers for the benefits of greedy partisan TC capitalists.

Now be fair and ask those greedy, so-called TC nationalists to pay the bill of rehabilitation of those innocent settlers...

Face with the realities my friend....
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Postby erolz » Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:10 am

insan wrote: erolz,

Cyprus is a small Island which even cannot afford for its own people... Why do you think all those TCs and GCs obliged to leave their homeland and went abroad?


Cyprus cannot afford? Do the settlers get paid by the government? Or do they work hard at low paid jobs that many true 'cypriots' would not do themselves? A united Cyprus is not a poor country. People leave countires to escape oppression and to find a better life. Both of these reasons have applied and to a degree still apply in the Cyprus. Particulalrly in the North today there is a lack of opportunity caused by its isolation and sanctions. Cypriots leave Cyprus to find a better life. Turks leave Turkey to find a better life. People all over the world leave their countries of origin to find a better life or escape oppression.

insan wrote:Find a fair formula which at first embraces TCs who obliged to immigarte and GCs who temporarily obliged to abandon their properties in North for security reasons then ask people to think about settlers humanely ...


Why does a fair solution for Cypriots have to involve repatriation of Turkish settlers? Is their not enough space in Cyprus for all of us? Is there not enough economic opportuinty to support all of us, if a settlement could be found? My TC cousin that lives in America, is married to an American and works in a high paid job in an American bank has no desire to return to Cyprus to work in the fields for a susbsitance living or as a cleaner as many Turkish settlers do. Yes there needs to be a settlement on former owned GC property (as their does on former TC property going back to 1960). I have another cousin that was educated outside of Cyprus, travelled all over the world and had opportuinty to live and work outside of Cyprus. He chose to return to Cyprus, make his life there, work hard and bring up his family there. My father who left Cyprus in 1956 did so becasue it was a dangerous place to be as a young TC male and had limited opportunites and he had met and English woman in Cyprus (my mother). He may have felt 'obliged' to leave Cyprus but having left he created a new life for himself in the UK. Should we deny this opportunity to Turkish settlers, because of how they arrived here? Some Cypriots will always leave Cyprus, if there is unity or not, if there are settlers here or not. Some will stay.
Exactly when should we get round to thinking about settlers humanely? After we have sent them away? It will be too late then.

insan wrote:
But priorly you have to embrace real children of Cyprus then the settlers.... Do you know how much it costs? As a humane person you are, are you ready to donate at least half of your income for the sake of those badly affected people.


Am I a real child of Cyprus? Should I be sent home? I was born in the UK to and English mother? I lived in the UK till about 2 years ago. I speak no Turkish? Who decides who is a real Cypriot or not? Are Settlers married to 'real Cypriots' also 'real Cypriots' or not? Are their children? Are the children of settlers born in Cyprus 'real Cypriots'? Are the children of children of settlers born in Cyprus 'real Cypriots' or not? Who will decide?

How much does a 'settler' cost? Do they not work? Do they not pay their taxes and rates?

Am I ready to support a 50% rate of income tax for the highest earners in Cyprus, if that is what it takes? Yes I am. 50% top tax bracket is not an unusal rate around Europe. I believe in the UK currently the top tax braket is 40%. I has been as high historicaly as 80% and above.

insan wrote:Let's say a relevant law had been approved by the united Cyprus parliamentary and it orders that "The TCs who have x amount of income and at x valued property, shall pay 1/2 of their total incomes for the rehabilitation of the Turkish settlers..."


Am I perpared to pay income tax rates that are inline with other 'progressive' European states to support a Cypriot state? Yes I am. Would I want to see that money spent exclusively on 'settlers'? No I would want Cypriots to accept the settlers as equaly Cypriot and for the bulk of the states tax revenues to be used to help the poorest Cypriots, be they GC, TC, settlers, marionites or from anywhere else.

insan wrote:Would you, your family and all others who have that certain amount of goods ever accept such a law?


I can not speak for others, be they my family or not, on this issue. However I reiterate that Cyprus is not a poor country. The RoC is certainly not the poorest member of the EU and neither would a untied Cyprus be. If you look outside the EU then even NC is not a poor country despite its current situation. I accept that in a progressive civilised society one function of taxation should be for the wealthy to contribute to helping the poor.

insan wrote:So what you are trying to tell us? Please be honest... We have over 600.000 TCs that obliged to migrate abroad due to paramilitary organizations oppression in 1955-74 period and oppressions of Denktash regime in 1974-2004 period...


I am trying to tell you that some of those 600,000 would have left Cyprus whatecer the situation here was and some would not. I am telling you that I do not believe that settlers being allowed to stay here as Cypriots makes any difference as to weahter those that have left decide to return or not

insan wrote:Have you ever felt their pain? Have you ever bring a lawsuit to the responsibles of this crime of humanity?


I have felt the pain of living as a 'half immigrant' in the UK. I know the predjudice, the hate and how the unfair and racist blaming of immigrants for all a countries ills feels to those immigrants.
No I have never bought a lwasuit against anyone. So what? What does that have to do with settlers and wheather they should be sent home or not?

insan wrote:Have you ever written a reproachment letter to Denktash or Eroglu and asked why have they brought ten thousands of settlers to the North while TCs suffering of uneployment?


Every country blames imigrants for its unemployment. This does not mean that they are responsible for it. I know and understand your frustration at wanting to live in Cyprus but not being able to because you cannot find work at a suitable wage. Can you honestly say there is a settler somewhere doing a job here that you could or would do and that would pay you what you would need to live? Or is the truth that they are doing jobs they you would not or could not do at salaries that are not enough for you to live on?

insan wrote:Do you think settlers have been ill-treated by vast majority of TCs?


I think that many many TC and quite possibly a majority of TC 'look down' on Turkish settlers. I see the same sort of views towards settlers that I saw towards my father and our family in the UK who were 'immigrants' there. I see it even within my own family in Cyrpus and it makes me ashamed. Not all TC have such views about the settlers but these negative views are widespread. Just as they are to immigrants the world over. I say that we (Cypriots) who have suffered because of ethnic based hatred and oppression should know better than to extend this hatred onto 'non Cypriots'. We should DO better. I have no desire to see GC and TC extremist nationalist views replaced by extermist Cypriot nationalist views, where anyone who is not a 'true Cypriot' is fair game to be looked down on, to be exploited, to be blamed for all of Cyrpus' problems. If that is the price of unity in Cyprus it is not one I am prepared to pay.

insan wrote:No my friend! The ones; those so-called nationalists have brought them into North and use them as vote machines and as cheap labourers for the benefits of greedy partisan TC capitalists.


That may well be true but why then punish the settlers who are just as much victims? Why not punish those that made them victims?

insan wrote:Now be fair and ask those greedy, so-called TC nationalists to pay the bill of rehabilitation of those innocent settlers...

Face with the realities my friend....


I am more than happy to ask the wealthy to pay more in tax to support the less well off? This is called progressive taxation. I believe in it.

I do my best to face reality.[/quote]
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:28 am

Very interesting points of view have been recorded in this subject in a civilised manner but in a way that really highlights the issue. I believe that anyone who has lived in a foreign country and has faced the scorn of the nationalist locals cannot but see the settlers, be they legal or illegal, with a sympathetic eye.

We have a similar problem in the south. We brought in thousands of settlers from the Pontus region of Russia and somehow managed to create ghettos for them. Now, we blame them for the ... bad air we breath. They are easy targets and everytime one of them commits a crime, petty or more serious, he is not referred to by his name but by his race, in ALL the media.

Thus, here we have a classical example of a public opinion being formulated based on brute racists instincts. The protagonists in this sorry affair are politicians who deep down admire Hitler and most of them are in DIKO, the President's party but I must admit, you find them in all parties and walks of life.

Coming back to the original topic, I would like to point out that this issue, which admittedly is very complecated, as it has a strong humanitarian aspect, will only be solved when the Cyprob is finally resolved. On 24 April we let history bypass us and probably, by the time we get another chance (if we get another chance) the problem will be tenfold.

This is why we owe it to ourselves and our children and the generations that will follow us to solve the problem real fast. There is no other way but to accept the A plan and of course the responsibility is on the GC side who heeded the President's advice and now are eagerly awaiting a better, european so called, solution.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:59 am

Well said Erolz. In order to solve Cyprus problem we need to avoid creating new victims. It is a challenge for all countries to involve minorities so as they feel included and responsible towards the society they live in, something the RoC has never done. otherwise we are transferring our hatred one ethnic group to another.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:11 am

In order to solve Cyprus problem we need to avoid creating new victims.


So instead of creating new victims why not victimize the same people again, right?

You don't want to create new victims and you care about the well being of the settlers? Here is a great way that I am sure no settler would object:

Turkey and TCs (the ones that care so much like erolz) should buy each family of settlers a nice 2 story house with a swimming pool at Antalya, just 5 minute walk from the beach. They should also give them high paid jobs and the best education. And why not a BMW? Problem solved!

Settlers were brought to Cyprus illegally by Turkey. They should take them back, and their human rights and well being is their responsibility and not ours.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:51 pm

[quote="Piratis"][quote]
So instead of creating new victims why not victimize the same people again, right?

Who said anything about victimising the same people again? (apart from you?)
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Postby metecyp » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:59 pm

Who said anything about victimising the same people again? (apart from you?)

Isn't denying someone from enjoying his/her anchestoral house/land essentially victimizing?? I don't agree with Piratis totally but I wouldn't like to be thrown out of my house and told that I should forget about my house because some people that shouldn't have been in my house in the first place would be victimized if I get my house back.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:50 pm

I agree, and I am not saying that anyway.

I thought we already had discussions in the past about this issue and that there was some consensus on this issue. have things shifted so that now no one other than whoever was here before 1974 is seen as having the right to live in Cyprus?
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