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Demographics and population of Cyprus in regard of settlers

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:27 pm

Imagine at least 1/4 of Tcs who live abroad had returned to their motherland Cyprus with their investments and hopes... to be right by side of their beloveds, to make their motherland a better place... to prepare their children a better future... to contribute and collaborate their GC neighbours, to feel the sun and air of their own country...

Then imagine everything had gone well and another 1/4 of TCs had returned to their homeland... Wouldn't it be great for all of us?

No doubt it would be....

Imagine it and then come tell me what's what......
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Postby Piratis » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:41 pm

have things shifted so that now no one other than whoever was here before 1974 is seen as having the right to live in Cyprus?


They keyword in what you said above is the word "right". No, most of the settlers do not have the right to be in Cyprus.
(Exceptions are the ones that are married with TCs.)

If some of them will remain is because we are making them a favor, not because we are obligated to accept them. This means that we can decide how many and whom exactly we will allow to stay, making sure that the number that will stay will be one that will not affect Cypriots in any negative way.

Also, it is wrong to say that settlers have the right to stay, because this is like an open invitation for them, and an excuse for Turkey, to bring even more here.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:27 pm

Erol wrote: I am not saying that there should be no settlement on GC lost properties. I am saying this does not requirr repatriation of the settlers. Moving homes within Cyprus maybe but moving countries is not required.


The fact IS that the GCs under any solution will be deprived their human right to return to their properties until the settler decides to move. And this may take a minimum of 5 years -until the settler gets a new house. And that most of the settlers are farmers who unless they keep the lands they are using they will starve. So what is the choice?Leave those people and let them starve, build them a brand new house and let them sell it and emmigrate,put them on wellfare, or the ones who brought them here (Turkey) to pay all costs for their return to their own homes and lands? In all cases I never sugested the use of force. I sugested measures and guidelines.

Erol wrote: They are not the ones that took your properties


You mean they are not the ONLY ones of course.Yes this I know.

Erol wrote: What evidence do you have that because they are poor people from eastern Turkey (in the main) that they are any less honest, any less willing to abide by the laws where they live, any less able to understand than anyone else?


Μy evidence has nothing to do with the fact that they are poor. It has to do with theύr mentality and ethics. And here it is as written by a TC.
QUOTE
T/C are aware of their cultural components. They are as much Turkish as they are Cypriots. They can understand Turkey and Turkish people very well. The funny thing is T/C dont share many typical characteristics of Turkish society. We T/C are very easy-going, pragmatical, negotiatable, warm-blooded mediterranean people while people from Turkey are stubborn, proud, one-track-minded, unnegotiatable and fighting people. If you try to discuss a matter with a Turk from mainland you have to take into account that you might end up being physically attacked or being stabbed!!! Cypriots generally dislike this behaviour and almost 28 years living with the settlers here we learned to keep them out of our private lives. In public everybody tends to treat settlers equally (also because Cypriots avoid being rude to anybodys face) but when it comes to families visiting each other for a coffee and chat we tend to select our friends from Cypriots. (This is also natural as Turks have different culture and tates- they prefer to drink their funny Turkish tea to our lovely coffee for one thing!!!)
UNQUOTE

Erol wrote: Labelling one group of people as more likley to break the law than another is distastful to me.


I said illiteracy is linked with not comprehending the law or the limits of your rights.And of course is linked wύth much more likelyness to break the law. This has been proven by sociological studies.

Erol wrote: Exactly how are human rights infinged by allow a poor Turk from eastern Turkey to remain in Cyprus (not in someone elses property) to seek a better life for themselves and their famaily.


Exactly the same way in which I can not live with safety at night fearing from thieves, and other sorts of criminals.Poverty is one thing, customs of the trashy settlers are another don't mix the two.But if in fact you don't know ask other TCs to tell you the customs of the settlers.


Erol wrote: The comaprsion with Europe and the USA would be more accurate if you suggested that they should expell existing immigrants.


Thats not what I suggested. Don't jump into conclusions. I repeat my question:What do you think is the reason they don't let their doors wide open for those immigrants? And why all Countries are not willing to take in immigrants?

Erol wrote: Should those who perpetrated the crime not be the ones to be punished, following some sort of prosecution?


To this one I agree.

Erol wrote: Do they really represent such a danger to Cyprus that you imply?

All we know about the settlers comes from the TCs.A few days ago Mehmet in this forum wrote how his village was affected by the settlers and what his family did to escape. If the TCs cannot stand them do you think the GCs will? The danger is that of a clash, and perhaps human blood that we cannot accept it at a new Cyprus that would hardly stand on its feet for many years to follow.

PS.Do you know Erol that the most polite and the most Gentle people in the World are the Indians? (from India).Yet they are among the poorest. So don't confuse the fact that the settlers are poor with their behaviour.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:10 pm

[quote="MicAtCyp"]
All we know about the settlers comes from the TCs.A few days ago Mehmet in this forum wrote how his village was affected by the settlers and what his family did to escape. If the TCs cannot stand them do you think the GCs will?

I don't want to be misunderstood so let me make this clear. Yest the village was changed by the settlers but leaving the village was down to a few factors

Life in farming is hard both physically and financially. It was thought much better to get an office job and to live in the town. So in that sense Erol is correct, the people from Anatolia are doing the work Turkish Cypriots don't want to do. For the same reason members of my family escape from Cyprus but that is as much to do with the economic situation in northern Cyprus as anything else. The people from Anatolia are not responsible for the economic isolation.
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Postby erolz » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:17 am

metecyp wrote:Isn't denying someone from enjoying his/her anchestoral house/land essentially victimizing?? I don't agree with Piratis totally but I wouldn't like to be thrown out of my house and told that I should forget about my house because some people that shouldn't have been in my house in the first place would be victimized if I get my house back.


I understand this point. What I do not understand is why this must mean that turkish mainlanders be obliged to return to Turkey (rather than just obliged to return property that used to belong to others).

(oh and a favourite Ghandi quote of mine "live simply that others may simply live")
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Postby erolz » Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:20 am

insan wrote:Imagine at least 1/4 of Tcs who live abroad had returned to their motherland Cyprus with their investments and hopes... to be right by side of their beloveds, to make their motherland a better place... to prepare their children a better future... to contribute and collaborate their GC neighbours, to feel the sun and air of their own country...

Then imagine everything had gone well and another 1/4 of TCs had returned to their homeland... Wouldn't it be great for all of us?

No doubt it would be....

Imagine it and then come tell me what's what......


I can imagine it but I personaly doubt that it will actualy happen, in the scale of numbers you suggest. Even if it did happen in the scale you suggest are you saying there would then be no 'room' for settlers?
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Postby erolz » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:06 am

MicAtCyp wrote:The fact IS that the GCs under any solution will be deprived their human right to return to their properties until the settler decides to move.


Move from the house that was formely owned by others (if they live in such a house). I just do not see why this means they must also leave Cyprus altogeather if they do not wish too.

MicAtCyp wrote:And this may take a minimum of 5 years -until the settler gets a new house. And that most of the settlers are farmers who unless they keep the lands they are using they will starve. So what is the choice?Leave those people and let them starve, build them a brand new house and let them sell it and emmigrate,put them on wellfare, or the ones who brought them here (Turkey) to pay all costs for their return to their own homes and lands?


No we should not leave them in Cyprus homeless and starving. They should be given assistance as Cypriots to find new homes and new work. This assitance would not mean having to 'give them' a house that they could sell and emigrate from. State housing exists around the world and could be used here. They should be offered the same 'wellfare' benfits that any other Cypriot is entitled too.
I do not say they have or should have a right to stay in Cyprus. I say Cypriots should show compassion to these people. It should do so as a specific indication of a heartfelt will and desire and passion to to not inflict on others what they themselves have suffered, to find better more humane and compassionate and progressive ways to deal with people who are weak, poor and looked down on (especialy when they represent an ethnic group).

MicAtCyp wrote:In all cases I never sugested the use of force. I sugested measures and guidelines.


Either they will be 'required' to leave Cyprus or not. If it is merely to be suggested they leave Cyprus and guidlines given on how they can leave Cyprus, then would any significant numbers actualy do so? There is a difference between using force to make them leave and 'forcing' them to leave. No one is suggesting (i think) that guns should be held to their heads and they told 'leave or we shoot'. I do think (and maybe I am wrong?) people are suggesting they be given no choice about leaving or not - that to me represents being forced to leave but not necessarily the use of force to make them do so (if you see what I mean?)

MicAtCyp wrote:Μy evidence has nothing to do with the fact that they are poor. It has to do with theύr mentality and ethics.


This kind of idea scares me. That certain ractial groups are x, y and z and somehow genticaly so is to me a dangerous and pernicious idea. (where x,y and z are any number of degrogatory ideas like less law abding, more lazy, more stupid etc etc)

MicAtCyp wrote: And here it is as written by a TC.
QUOTE
T/C are aware of their cultural components. [snip]


Like I say this kind of 'thesis' scares the shit out of me, whoever it comes from. To me it is simply racists propaganda based on hatred fear and ignorance and the root of so much suffering in the world. As I have already stated these views when expressed by TC make me ashamed of my own TC heritage (as when expressed by citizens of the UK they make me ashamed of my UK heritage).
If we are to build a Cyprus (united or otherwise) based on such racist ideas that people other than 'Cpriots' or certain people from certain ethnic backgrounds are 'less' than we - then it is a Cyprus that I have no wish to be a part of. We Cypriots, who have suffered so much ourselves because of such racists views of the world, should know better and DO better than this. That is why for me any solution to our problems MUST involve elements that renounce this kind of view and seek to show compassion and progression in regards to the status of the settlers.



Erol wrote:
I said illiteracy is linked with not comprehending the law or the limits of your rights.And of course is linked wύth much more likelyness to break the law. This has been proven by sociological studies.


and the solution to this for me is not to 'expell' the illiterate but to make them literate.

MicAtCyp wrote:Exactly the same way in which I can not live with safety at night fearing from thieves, and other sorts of criminals.Poverty is one thing, customs of the trashy settlers are another don't mix the two.But if in fact you don't know ask other TCs to tell you the customs of the settlers.


and again I see this as essentialy a racist point of view and one that I reject. In the UK it is a fact that some racial groups have higher numbers in jail that there proportion in the population. For some this is 'proof' that these racial groups have ehtnicaly, geneticaly or cultrualy less law abiding. FOr me it is proof of no such thing. It is proof that they live in greater poverty, are more likely to be arrested and proscecuted and live with greater persecustion and NOT proof that they are bad because they are from a specific ethinic group.


MicAtCyp wrote:Thats not what I suggested. Don't jump into conclusions. I repeat my question:What do you think is the reason they don't let their doors wide open for those immigrants? And why all Countries are not willing to take in immigrants?


And I am not suggesting that Cyprus open its doors to all immigrants. WHat I am saying is that we should deal with those that are already here with compassion.
As to why countries in the west do not allow open immigration to any and all, I could write a whole doctorate on this subject but this is not the place for such discussions. Suffice it to say they know that their wealth and power that they got by robbing and stealing from the developing world, they do not wish to share with those they stole it from, because that would mean less for them. Free trade (imposed on the world by the rich) without also free movement of labour is oppression (as John Adams the 'father' of free trade ideas made very clear). Less clear and less obvious that direct colonisation but oppression none the less. However this is a much wider topic than the issue of 'should the settlers be required to return to Turkey or not'?.

MicAtCyp wrote:All we know about the settlers comes from the TCs.A few days ago Mehmet in this forum wrote how his village was affected by the settlers and what his family did to escape. If the TCs cannot stand them do you think the GCs will? The danger is that of a clash, and perhaps human blood that we cannot accept it at a new Cyprus that would hardly stand on its feet for many years to follow.


Well this TC (and as far as I am a TC?) renounces and denounces such ideas. I can stand them. Moreover if there are any general traits that can be applied to such groups (and I resits such application as a matter of principal) they would be for me (and true of immigrants in general in my experience) that the settlers are harder working and more humble than native TC's. However I would add that I make these generalisations 'with severe reservations'). There are nasty, lazy criminal settlers, just as there are TC (and no doubt GC). There are honest, hard working and good settlers, just as there are TC (and no doubt GC).

MicAtCyp wrote:PS.Do you know Erol that the most polite and the most Gentle people in the World are the Indians? (from India).Yet they are among the poorest. So don't confuse the fact that the settlers are poor with their behaviour.


These would be the same Indians that have devloped and continue to develop nuclear weapons of mass destruction and have a long history of ethinc violence within and outside of India, would it? Foe me this is just an example of how and why such 'racial' distinctions are invalid, simplistic and ultimately of no use and value.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:54 am

No we should not leave them in Cyprus homeless and starving. They should be given assistance as Cypriots to find new homes and new work. This assitance would not mean having to 'give them' a house that they could sell and emigrate from. State housing exists around the world and could be used here. They should be offered the same 'wellfare' benfits that any other Cypriot is entitled too.


Where are you going to build 25000 new homes for them? On land owned by you?

Who is going to pay for their welfare? You?

Erolz, it is very easy to be generous with other people's property and money, very easy.

Those people are Turks, not Cypriots. Since they are going to move out of the homes they occupy, whats your problem to move them some kilometers further to Turkey? New homes can be build for them there, welfare can be given to them there. Why should we take this weight, and not Turkey? They are Turkish citizens, not ours.

We are generous enough to the settlers for not asking for a cent for the unauthorized use of our homes and properties for 30 years. Why should we be the victims all the time???


Suffice it to say they know that their wealth and power that they got by robbing and stealing from the developing world, they do not wish to share with those they stole it from, because that would mean less for them.


Thats true for countries like the UK. But it is the exact opposite in our case. In Cyprus the settler Turks are the ones who stole our land and they have been using it for 30 years without our authorization. We stole nothing from them. They owe to us, we owe them nothing.

By the way, you keep confusing immigrants with settlers. One thing are immigrants and a whole another thing are settlers.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:04 pm

Erol just like Piratis said, your compassion, and your wellfare costs a hell lot of money. Money for which neither you, nor the settlers ever worked to make, and which are not enough to even care for the existing needs of our own.
Money that will simply vanish into the huge tripple Government of the new Federal State, for which your community will need more that 30 years to come up to the level of contributing its due share.

So you can be as polite and compasionate you like with your own money, but not with the money of others.The economic packs coming from Turkey are OVER after a solution, so better start thinking how to make your own living first and contribute your own due share, and then try to teach us how we can become Jesus Christs. Cyprus is NOT a superpower it has limited resources and the free areas are doing well economically due to hard work of the past 30 years (both in Cyprus and abroad in the burning sun of the deserts of the Gulf). Put 50,000-100,000 settlers on wellfare, in addition to the costs loaded on our shoulders for the Federal system, the compensations etc is like telling us to degrade our Standard of living to less than half for more than 20 years!

Turkey should pay ALL costs invlolved to take all those people back to where they belong because it is her complete responsibility.The new united Cyprus has responsibility to help ONLY her own children come back i.e the TCs and GC who emmigrated abroad. Furthermore like I said the settlers are not compatible with the behaviour and ethics of Cypriots (both GC and TC) and as such they will be a source of soucial trouble that would take more than 20-30 years to ease down. Why should anyone load such a headache on himself when the problem can be solved by a half an our trip with the ferry?

PS.There is an obvious answer to that why.For Turkey to continue control Cyprus via the settlers.So the stupid GCs would not only bend to be sxxxx they will also pay on top of it.Well you know the answer to that already. OXI !!!!
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Postby michalis5354 » Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:02 pm

Settlers that wish to stay they can stay those that wish to return with some kind of compensation will return.

No reasonable man can expect from all Settlers to go back. Unless he is racist of course.

In some other counries there are millions of refugees and they are doing jobs that the locals are not capable of doing! These also are humans and they can equally contribute as all the Locals.
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