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Human rights in Greece?

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Postby ManoWAR » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:32 am

bg_turk wrote:Kurds in Turkey can listen to news on the national TV "TRT" in their native language, they can study their own language in private schools - can minorities do the same in Greece? For god's sake you dont even recognize their existence.


Do you know how many Greeks were living in Turky in 1950s?
Do you know how many Greeks are living now in Turkey?
Do you know what happened to them?
Answer these questions and you will learn something more about the minority rights in Turkey...

Do you know how many Turks were living in Greece in 1950s?
Do you know how many Turks are living now in Greece?
Do you know why?
Answer these questions and (maybe) you will learn something more about the minority rights in Greece!

By the way, you ever heard about a minority used to live in Turkey called Armenians? What hapened to them?
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Postby bg_turk » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:47 am

Akiner,

13 bullets were shot in the body of 12 year old Ugur at close range, and the weapons were left there by the security forces that comitted this crime to justify it.

When you post these propaganda links, you just show how blinded you are from your nationalism. Instead of seeking the truth, you run away from it, in order to justify your rosy picture of Turkish human rights in whatever way you can. When you learn to think like a human being, not like a hardcore turkish nationalist, maybe we can lead some reasonable discussion.

Here is a report by Human Rights Watch in Turkey, but apparently you choose to believe some tabloid like SABAH.

Unlawful Killings by Security Forces
In addition to security concerns arising from the village guard system, attacks on civilians by the gendarmerie discourage return. Three unlawful killings by security forces in late 2004, underscored the continued potential for lethal state violence against civilians in general, and IDPs in particular.

On November 21, security forces shot dead Ahmet Kaymaz, a villager displaced from Köprülü village in Mardin province, and his twelve-year-old son Uğur Kaymaz in the nearby town of Kızıltepe.15 Neighbors told the Human Rights Association of Turkey (HRA) that Kaymaz and his son had been preparing their commercial vehicle for a forthcoming journey and were unarmed at the time of the shooting. The provincial governor issued a statement that “two terrorists have been captured dead following a clash.”16 An HRA delegation investigated the incident and concluded that there was little evidence to suggest that Kaymaz and his son had been involved in an armed clash with security forces, as the official incident report claims. The HRA noted that since Kaymaz was a full-time truck driver and that his son had an uninterrupted attendance record at his local primary school, they were unlikely to be members of any guerrilla force. Kaymaz had recently appointed a lawyer to deal with his application for compensation for his displacement, and the autopsy report noted that related documents were on his person at the time of death.

A week after the Kaymaz killings, on November 28, gendarmes shot dead Fevzi Can, a shepherd who resided in the partially evacuated village of Ortaklar, in Şemdinli, Hakkari province.17 A local newspaper reported claims by Fevzi Can’s uncle that the military authorities had taken the body away and refused to release it unless Can’s relatives signed a statement saying that “a terrorist who failed to respond to a call to halt was killed.”18 Official statements described Can as a livestock smuggler19 but the village muhtar and Fevzi Can’s brother denied this, and pointed out that the animals in his possession had not been confiscated by the authorities, as is usual in smuggling cases, following Fevzi Can’s death. Efforts to coerce the relatives and conflicting stories about “terrorism” and “livestock smuggling” have provoked suspicions that this was an unlawful killing.

Four members of the Turkish Army Special Operations Team were indicted in December 2004 by the Mardin Chief Prosecutor’s Office for the killings of Ahmet and Uğur Kaymaz. The first hearing was held on February 12 at Mardin Criminal Court No. 2. The trial continues. An investigation has been opened against gendarmes thought to be responsible for the death of Fevzi Can. Prosecutions in southeast Turkey for similar crimes in the past have rarely resulted in convictions, giving cause for scepticism about whether those responsible for these offences will be held to account.

The discovery on November 4, 2004, of a common grave containing the bones of eleven people in the Kepre district of Alaca village has renewed awareness of the region’s history of violence and impunity. DNA samples are currently being tested, but clothing and objects indicate that the remains belong to eleven villagers detained by soldiers and “disappeared” at the time of the forced evacuation and destruction of Alaca in 1993.20 In 2001, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found the Turkish government responsible for violations of the right to life in respect of the eleven men. In its judgment, the Court was “struck by the lack of any meaningful effort” by public prosecutors to investigate the “disappearances” at Alaca.21 Villagers told the court that commandos from Bolu took the villagers away, but no soldiers from that unit were indicted.

According to the U.N. Principles on the Effective Prevention and Investigation of Extra-Legal, Arbitrary and Summary Executions, killings such as those described above should be investigated by independent expert commissions.22 The Turkish authorities have consistently resisted this route, preferring to leave the job to the public prosecution service that, over the past two decades, has proven itself either unable or unwilling to hold the members of the security forces to account.

Unless the Turkish government radically alters the manner in which allegations of killings by the security services and the village guard are investigated, and the perpetrators brought to account, impunity will continue, and many internally displaced will lack the confidence to return to their homes.

source: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0305/4.htm

MonoWAR,

how many turks lived in what is now called Greece in 1900. 5 to 8 millions of Turks were expelled from all the Balkans as a result of the liberation of Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Turkey was hardpressed to deal with millons of refugees, when you greeks tried to invade what was left of its European territories. How do you explain the fact that turkey recognizes the Rum (greek) nature of this minority and allows the Greek patriarchate in Istanbul, does Greece do any of this NOW? Your state is the most ethnically homogenous one, because you have ethnically cleansed and assimilated all minorities slavic, turkish and albanian forcefully. Where are the albanians of South Epirus, the bulgarians of Western Thrace, the macedonians of Aegean Macedonia, the turks of Thessaloniki?
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Postby akiner » Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:30 pm

bg_turk,
13 bullets were shot in the body of 12 year old Ugur at close range, and the weapons were left there by the security forces that comitted this crime to justify it.

How do u know it , were u there with these security forces?!

So when i look at this issue from your perspective i must believe some bibs and bobs from an organization which serves for benefits of foreign powers, just check their contact information, instead of trusting a well-known newspaper in Turkey..?!
Lets continue that way so my grandgrand father made a mistake when he believed propaganda of national struggle forces at the end of ww1 just after he came from Yemen, instead he had not to share your consciousless west admiration and not to follow instructions that spreading around from english intelligance agency to start a revolt against M. Kemal and his new borned army!


btw how come that much money they can gatherhttp://www.hrw.org/donations/finance.htm i am sure no grants from western governments

and if you want a reasonable discuss try to answer the questions i asked on my previous posts
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Postby bg_turk » Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:25 pm

akiner wrote:bg_turk,
13 bullets were shot in the body of 12 year old Ugur at close range, and the weapons were left there by the security forces that comitted this crime to justify it.

How do u know it , were u there with these security forces?!

Were you?

So when i look at this issue from your perspective i must believe some bibs and bobs from an organization which serves for benefits of foreign powers, just check their contact information, instead of trusting a well-known newspaper in Turkey..?!

We are talking about the TURKISH human rights organization, which you accuse of serving foriegn interests, i.e. of treason. Is it treason to defend human rights? I live in as a member of the turkish minority in Bulgaria, and I am honestly glad that the majority of Bulgarians do not think like you.

Lets continue that way so my grandgrand father made a mistake when he believed propaganda of national struggle forces at the end of ww1 just after he came from Yemen, instead he had not to share your consciousless west admiration and not to follow instructions that spreading around from english intelligance agency to start a revolt against M. Kemal and his new borned army!

With all due respect, we live in 2005, not in 1921. Today, nobody is asking you to start a revolt against the Turkish Republic, you are being asked to respect the rights of the citizens of the Turkish Republic regardless of their ethnic origin. It is truely shameful that somebody else has to tell Turkey how to take care of the human rights of her own citizens.
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Postby akiner » Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:44 pm

akiner wrote:
bg_turk,
Quote:
13 bullets were shot in the body of 12 year old Ugur at close range, and the weapons were left there by the security forces that comitted this crime to justify it.

How do u know it , were u there with these security forces?!

Were you?

i werent, were u? and i am not a west admirer like you that is the reason why i believe a national source instead of an organization has grants from un-known source and either if u know where turkish human rights organization gets money post here

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0305/4.htm is that a turkish site?

"With all due respect, we live in 2005, not in 1921. Today, nobody is asking you to start a revolt against the Turkish Republic, you are being asked to respect the rights of the citizens of the Turkish Republic regardless of their ethnic origin. It is truely shameful that somebody else has to tell Turkey how to take care of the human rights of her own citizens."

i even dont consider that as a reply, dont try to fool me or at least pls try to understand what i wanted to mean
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Postby bg_turk » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:18 pm

akiner wrote: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0305/4.htm is that a turkish site?

Here is the turkish site: http://www.ihd.org.tr/

i even dont consider that as a reply, dont try to fool me or at least pls try to understand what i wanted to mean

I am not trying to fool you. Believe it or not, I am trying to understand you but I simply cannot. You seem to think the West and the kurds have formed a secret pact and are conspiring to divide Turkey, and the IHD (Insan Haklari Dernegi) is the secret paid agent that is promoting their agenda.
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Postby akiner » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:55 am

am not trying to fool you. Believe it or not, I am trying to understand you but I simply cannot.

to understand, why dont u read my all posts in this thread word by word without urgent reply desire, and answer all question i asked on these posts to u(no need public replyies)
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Postby ManoWAR » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:19 am

bg_turk wrote:MonoWAR,

how many turks lived in what is now called Greece in 1900. 5 to 8 millions of Turks were expelled from all the Balkans as a result of the liberation of Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Turkey was hardpressed to deal with millons of refugees, when you greeks tried to invade what was left of its European territories. How do you explain the fact that turkey recognizes the Rum (greek) nature of this minority and allows the Greek patriarchate in Istanbul, does Greece do any of this NOW? Your state is the most ethnically homogenous one, because you have ethnically cleansed and assimilated all minorities slavic, turkish and albanian forcefully. Where are the albanians of South Epirus, the bulgarians of Western Thrace, the macedonians of Aegean Macedonia, the turks of Thessaloniki?


The liberty movements, where people of Balkans were fighting to become free is a different topic!

I am talking about the respect of human rights of the minorities...

Read a small example:

"The night of 6th to 7th of September 1955, a Turkish mob in Istanbul, organized and directed by state authorities, conducted a vicious pogrom against the Greek Community of Istanbul. As a result:
Sixteen Greeks died (the 90-years old Fr. Mantas was burned alive), and thirty two were severely wounded.


At least two hundred Greek women were raped. Hundreds of Greeks were tortured.

Seventy three churches and twenty three schools were vandalized, burned or destroyed.

One thousand four houses were looted; 4,348 stores, 110 hotels, 27 pharmacies and 21 factories destroyed.

The Patriarchal and other Greek cemeteries were desecrated. The dead bodies of Patriarchs were unburied and profaned.

Relics of Saints were burned or thrown to the dogs.

In 1958-1959, a new anti-greek wave took place. Turkish nationalist students embarked on a campaign of leaflet distribution outside Greek shops, encouraging the boycott of Greek businesses.

In 1964, all Greek nationals, permanent residents of Istanbul (people who were born and lived in Istanbul but retained the Greek citizenship) were eexpelled from the country on a two-day notice. Eventually, the Greek community of Istanbul shrunk from eighty thousand souls in 1955 to only forty eight thousand in 1965.

In August 1995, the US Senate passed a special resolution marking the anti-Greek pogrom of September 1955, calling on the US President to proclaim September 6, 1955, a Day of Memory for the victims of the pogrom."
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:44 am

The liberty movements, where people of Balkans were fighting to become free is a different topic!

Oh, yeah! You didn't exactly have to ethnically clanse and expell several million innocent turkish villagers to be free.

If you want to post about the progrom in Istanbul, there is a different thread about it, post there, this is about human rights in Greece. Here you can only post about the progrom in Solun/Selanik on its turkish/slavic inhabiants.
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Postby ManoWAR » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:00 pm

bg_turk wrote: Here you can only post about the progrom in Solun/Selanik on its turkish/slavic inhabiants.


Who said so????? I can write anything I want in order to show that Turkey is some centuries behind Europe as regards the human rights…
Anyway, if you have any evidence about such a pogrom (in THESSALONIKI on its turkish/slavic inhabiants) give it to us!
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