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EU Presidency.

Benefits and problems from the EU membership.

Re: EU Presidency.

Postby Schnauzer » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:01 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
Positive Vibe wrote:Why the vehement Euroscepticism?

a) Is it a hate founded on princple? Like for instance do you guys oppose all big bodies (incl. governments)?

or

b) Is there something particuarly bad about EU specifically? Or maybe both 'a' and 'b'?


Too general PV.

There's a detachment from the democratic process in matters EU. Too many "directives" in which common people don't have an effective say. Too much remoteness.

For instance, have written to local GB MP at the GB Parliament here in London dozens of times over the years and have always had a considered reply to the issues raised, which is very nice, part of the democratic process. Written to MEPs as well and not one of them bothered to reply, no acknowledgements even, which leaves an impression of people being on a gravy train for their own benefit with no time for their constituents.

Have also emailed EU Commissioners and other EU civil servants with only one reply, from some over-paid and under-worked chap who asked me not to use what he called his (sic) "personal email", even though it was an address with a .eu suffix, one paid for by the European tax-payer!

So my experiences are that the EU is too aloof from the people.

... and matters weren't helped by the debacle of the Lisbon Treaty, which just so blatantly avoided the inconvenience of the promised democratic referenda in member-states.


In all fairness 'Bill' (and I hope you don't mind the familiarity :lol: ) I think you are drawing a distinction between those who are MEP's (EU) and those who are MP's (UK) when you suggest that there are comparisons in the 'Notice' that is taken of the general electorate.

To highlight merely ONE incident which involved a 'Referendum' held in the UK, 92% of those who participated (61% of the population) opposed the construction of a 'Recycling Plant' on 'Green Belt' land in the King's Lynn area of Norfolk,

One would have thought that such opposition would have sealed the fate of any such proposals... not so, the voice of the people IS (as has always been) of no real consequence, when vast sums of public money coupled with the ambitions of those who control it are concerned. :wink:
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Re: EU Presidency.

Postby bill cobbett » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:31 pm

Schnauzer wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
Positive Vibe wrote:Why the vehement Euroscepticism?

a) Is it a hate founded on princple? Like for instance do you guys oppose all big bodies (incl. governments)?

or

b) Is there something particuarly bad about EU specifically? Or maybe both 'a' and 'b'?


Too general PV.

There's a detachment from the democratic process in matters EU. Too many "directives" in which common people don't have an effective say. Too much remoteness.

For instance, have written to local GB MP at the GB Parliament here in London dozens of times over the years and have always had a considered reply to the issues raised, which is very nice, part of the democratic process. Written to MEPs as well and not one of them bothered to reply, no acknowledgements even, which leaves an impression of people being on a gravy train for their own benefit with no time for their constituents.

Have also emailed EU Commissioners and other EU civil servants with only one reply, from some over-paid and under-worked chap who asked me not to use what he called his (sic) "personal email", even though it was an address with a .eu suffix, one paid for by the European tax-payer!

So my experiences are that the EU is too aloof from the people.

... and matters weren't helped by the debacle of the Lisbon Treaty, which just so blatantly avoided the inconvenience of the promised democratic referenda in member-states.


In all fairness 'Bill' (and I hope you don't mind the familiarity :lol: ) I think you are drawing a distinction between those who are MEP's (EU) and those who are MP's (UK) when you suggest that there are comparisons in the 'Notice' that is taken of the general electorate.

To highlight merely ONE incident which involved a 'Referendum' held in the UK, 92% of those who participated (61% of the population) opposed the construction of a 'Recycling Plant' on 'Green Belt' land in the King's Lynn area of Norfolk,

One would have thought that such opposition would have sealed the fate of any such proposals... not so, the voice of the people IS (as has always been) of no real consequence, when vast sums of public money coupled with the ambitions of those who control it are concerned. :wink:


Yes, yes, yes but, no but, yes but, petitions within GB planning law aren't binding. To compare like with like, to compare the ONE petition you mention with my experiences of MEPs, did the petitioners get a reply from the local council???

... and yes, and to leave aside your interest in rubbish for a mo and to return to bigger matters, based on my experiences, which is a perfectly valid test, GB MP replies but EU MEPs did not. What more is there to be said?

... other than to say, referenda in member-states on the EU Constitution are binding, and it only took a "no" vote, effectively a veto, in Ireland to prompt the unaccountable EU Commission to circumvent the referenda and popular will and impose much the same terms, a new European Constitution, introduced by Stealth as a workaround not just to the popular will but also to circumvent the binding, legally required mandate of the People, through the Lisbon Treaty.

What faith can the populous have in an institution that does that mate???
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Re: EU Presidency.

Postby Positive Vibe » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:53 pm

bill cobbett wrote:... and yes, and to leave aside your interest in rubbish for a mo and to return to bigger matters, based on my experiences, which is a perfectly valid test, GB MP replies but EU MEPs did not. What more is there to be said?


I'm no pro EU crusader or anything. If you're telling me that there are assholes and rogue elements working inside the EU, then that's something I can get behind, but I'm sure the same is true for the UK and, really, all governments as well.

bill cobbett wrote:There's a detachment from the democratic process in matters EU.


Are you advocating direct democracy here? In other words are you suggesting that all opinions should matter equally on all subjects?
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Re: EU Presidency.

Postby bill cobbett » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:14 pm

Positive Vibe wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:... and yes, and to leave aside your interest in rubbish for a mo and to return to bigger matters, based on my experiences, which is a perfectly valid test, GB MP replies but EU MEPs did not. What more is there to be said?


I'm no pro EU crusader or anything. If you're telling me that there are assholes and rogue elements working inside the EU, then that's something I can get behind, but I'm sure the same is true for the UK and, really, all governments as well.

bill cobbett wrote:There's a detachment from the democratic process in matters EU.


Are you advocating direct democracy here? In other words are you suggesting that all opinions should matter equally on all subjects?


No mate, not directly demo, which is another matter... just asking that MEPs answer letters.
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Re: EU Presidency.

Postby Positive Vibe » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:31 pm

From what you're saying I come away with the impression that there is nothing particualrly bad about the EU. That's something I can agree with too as the larger the organisation the less flexible it will be.
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Re: EU Presidency.

Postby bill cobbett » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:05 pm

Positive Vibe wrote:From what you're saying I come away with the impression that there is nothing particualrly bad about the EU. That's something I can agree with too as the larger the organisation the less flexible it will be.


Well, the jury is out...

Think the Euro Commission has too much power and is a strange combination of a civil service and some kind of executive body. It's where all those Directives comes from, and just who is it accountable to??

In an ideal world, in any other system, it would be accountable to and under the direction of the Euro Parliament, or at least of the majority party there, but of course the powers of the EP are deliberately neutered by the national governments.
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Re: EU Presidency.

Postby Schnauzer » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 pm

bill cobbett wrote:

What faith can the populous have in an institution that does that mate???


To home in in your final comment relative to the behaviour of EU procedures (and taking into account the lack of courtesy you experienced in your dealings with certain individuals therein) I would still suggest that the 'Attitude' toward the general populace (and it's function) are precisely the SAME whether we are in or out of the EU.

For all the political 'Hype' that attends most of the proposals made by those in power, the opinion of the people is far too often the least considered and of least importance regardless of which side of the fence we would prefer to 'Graze' in.

I would not presume to offer an alternative system BUT, the evocation of the ancient act of 'Defenestration', might be an acceptable start in the ridding of the burdens imposed upon us by those that currently hold sway in our (supposedly) 'Democratic' societies. (imho) :wink:
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