France-UK 'deal on Turkey talks'
 | France-UK 'deal on Turkey talks' |  |
 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:17 am |
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| Piratis |
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| The deal would make Turkish recognition of Cyprus a condition for joining the EU, but it would not be required early on in the negotiations, reports say. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4238220.stm
This is what I expected regarding recognition. However this article doesn't say anything about Turkey opening its ports and airports to Cyprus. I believe that this should be a requirement with a deadline not after the first 6 months of 2006. |
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:52 am |
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| cypezokyli |
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| Joined: 17 Jul 2005 |
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| Quote: |
| The deal would make Turkish recognition of Cyprus a condition for joining the EU, but it would not be required early on in the negotiations, reports say. |
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| This is what I expected regarding recognition |
if we assume that the recognition of cyprus is a strategic goal in order to get a new plan, that means the strategic goal will be achieved just before turkey enters the EU which would happen in 2015? 2020? 2025?.... never? |
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:08 pm |
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| Piratis |
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They way I see it is like this:
Turkey gives something, gets something. E.g. They accept to open their ports and airports to Cyprus, in return they get the beginning of EU negotiations.
During the next 10-15 years if Turkey doesn't want to see her accession negotiations terminated (such thing will mean financial disaster for Turkey) she will have to continue making such positive steps.
Also she should know that to even have the possibility for EU entry, not only they will need to recognize RoC but they should also remove their troops, end the occupation and allow legality to be applied to the whole island.
If they want to keep northern Cyprus occupied they should know that this will come at a great cost for them. |
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:15 pm |
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| cypezokyli |
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its a well argued idea piratis.
even though i have a couple of things to say:
in15 years it is going to be 45 years after the invasion. all those who lived in the north back then , will be in their greater majority, dead.
so even if we manage to make turkey pay (as u say), it is for me a hollow victory.
the purpose is not make turkey pay. its a solution.
second, we assume that such a condition will be imposed on turkey. that we will know soon so there is no reason for both of us to start making our predictions.
thirdly, the political scene never stays constant. there exists now, a general anti-turkish feeling in europe which we could take advantage for the solution of the cyprus problem. we also shouldnt overestimate our power inside the EU. if the scene changes and europeans want turkey in, our demands will be conviniently neglected.
verheugen said already a couple of years ago: dont fool yourselfs that turkeys accession has to do only with criteria. it is above all a political decision. |
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:15 pm |
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| cypezokyli |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:38 pm |
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| Piratis |
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| Quote: |
in15 years it is going to be 45 years after the invasion. all those who lived in the north back then , will be in their greater majority, dead.
so even if we manage to make turkey pay (as u say), it is for me a hollow victory.
the purpose is not make turkey pay. its a solution. |
I don't understand your point. Of course it would be better to solve the Cyprus Problem today so more people can return to their land faster. However the solution of the Cyprus is not just for those people. The solution is for all Cypriots and for all the future generations. For me it is much more important to have a good solution (even after 15 years) for all the future generations rather than having a bad solution now to maybe satisfy part of 1-2 generations.
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second, we assume that such a condition will be imposed on turkey. that we will know soon so there is no reason for both of us to start making our predictions.
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We (Cyprus-Greece) can impose this condition. France already said that they will make a referendum whether Turkey should be allowed to join or not. If it was up to me I would declare the same thing for Cyprus from now.
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| thirdly, the political scene never stays constant. |
Yes I agree. Things can get better but things can get worst also. Lets hope (and work) so things will get better. |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:49 pm |
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| cypezokyli |
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my point is, that i have the feeling that we are satisfied with a recognition after 15 years. i dont see us worrying and being in a hurry to get to a solution.
i mean not in words. i mean i dont see any actions.
after 15 years, only the concequences of land construction and settlers who will stay for humanitarian reasons are enough to quarantee a not better solution.
let aside that after 15 years even if turkey recognises RoCyprus that doesnt mean a solution. not to mention the kind of solution. i am not even sure that in the case that turkey recognises RoC the proposed plan will be much different. are you? |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:22 pm |
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| Piratis |
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| my point is, that i have the feeling that we are satisfied with a recognition after 15 years. |
Who said that?
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i dont see us worrying and being in a hurry to get to a solution.
i mean not in words. i mean i dont see any actions.
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I don't think we should be in a hurry. I believe we should make correct careful moves.
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| after 15 years, only the concequences of land construction and settlers who will stay for humanitarian reasons are enough to quarantee a not better solution. |
I don't agree. What is constructed in 2 years can be taken down in 2 days. If we have the power to get a better solution then the construction, the settlers etc will not mean a thing. What is important is that we have the legal right.
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| i am not even sure that in the case that turkey recognises RoC the proposed plan will be much different. are you? |
Recognition of RoC by Turkey is one of the steps, not the final aim. |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:00 am |
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| cypezokyli |
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| Quote: |
| I don't think we should be in a hurry |
ok. no reason to discuss more about that. we just disagree
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| What is constructed in 2 years can be taken down in 2 days |
literally yes. politically i dont believe so.
a northern federal state will never accept to bring down its hotels factories or houses. (illegal or not).
i believe with 30 years we have seen that the proposed plan does not allow all refugees to return. it only allowed a big proportion. in 45 years the chances is that this number will fall.
(rightly or wrong it doesnt make a difference)
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| the settlers etc will not mean a thing |
since when?
the same arguement holds for the settler imo.
second, i dont see how the recognition will achieve this
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| What is important is that we have the legal right |
legal rights dont mean a thing.
if they did the refugees would have been already back.
if they did the UN-plan, would have followed UN-chart of human rights.
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| Recognition of RoC by Turkey is one of the steps, not the final aim |
is the final aim also achievable? |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:22 am |
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| Piratis |
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| a northern federal state will never accept to bring down its hotels factories or houses. (illegal or not). |
Wrong. It is our land, and therefore if they build something on our land it is our and we can bring it down if we want and we don't need to ask them. If they will accept this or not it will be totally irrelevant. Do they care if we accept or not our land to be occupied? They forced this on us because they have the power to do so.
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i believe with 30 years we have seen that the proposed plan does not allow all refugees to return. it only allowed a big proportion. in 45 years the chances is that this number will fall.
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I don't agree. Time is not that relevant. What matters is the balance of power. We lived in the north for not 30, not 45 but 3500 years. Did this matter to them when they performed ethnic cleansing against us?
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| second, i dont see how the recognition will achieve this |
Recognition is just a step.
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legal rights dont mean a thing.
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They don't mean a thing when you are the weak. When the balance of power favors you though your legal rights mean a lot.
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| is the final aim also achievable? |
Of course it is. I am not saying that it is for 100%, but it definitely has a good chance if we are patient and we don't sing our land away. |
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