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Positions of the Parties on Key Issues: What is better for u

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby erolz » Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:24 am

Piratis wrote: Lets ask Erolz to tell us,

When he came to the conclusion that TCs are "peoples", using the exact same criteria would the Armenians, Latins and Maronites qualify as "peoples" too? If no why?


I have already explained my view on this explicitly but once again for your benefit.

If you look at the 'learned opinions' I refered to before on this issue (which you have dismissed on the basis that there will always be 'learned opinions' that disagree - but have not bothered to present any) there are two approaches to determing the status of a group as a 'people' One of these is the criteria approach (which I believe is the suitable approach in the case of cyprus). One of these criteria is 'numbers'. None of the groups above reach this critera as a 'people' in my view and clearly so. You could argue that neither do the TC numbers meet this criteria but being <1% of total population is not the same argument as being 18-20% of the population.

Piratis wrote:Lets ask Erolz again, using the exact same criteria that you used to define TCs as "peoples", would the Hispanics of the US be "peoples" too?


Again I have already explain my postion on this point before but once again for your benefit. Another approach to defining a group as a 'people' or not (rather than a criteria approach) is the 'state' approach that say that all the people within a state are a single people regardless of criteria. If when 'wyoming' came inot existance as a 'state' there were two disitinict and seperate peoples of significant number then it seems that the 'criteria' approach would be a sensible approach. If when the state was created there was essentialy only a single group that consider itself a single group and then a groups comes into that state after its creation then I think the 'state' approach is relevant in defining peoples. If when wyoming was created as a 'state' there were a group that was 80% of the population that consider themselves american / wyoinginites that shared a common culture and language and there was also a second group that shared a different language and culture and did not consider themselves americans/wyomingites but considered themselves 'hispanics' then I think they would have a claim to be a 'people' and have as much right to self determiation as the american/wyomingites have.

I would also point out that in the criteria approach there are also criteria like have the 'people' expressed a will to have self determination. Have they sufficent numbers to make and self determining entity viable as an entity.

I have asked you before and will try and ask you again. Do you really think that the spirit of the 'right to self determination' as it is written was really intended to support your assertion that TC should have no rights in Cyprus excpet those of a minority. Do you think the ideals and concepts that led to the defining of the right to self determination were desined to be used as you try and agrue they should be used - namely that TC as a community as a people as a significant number of people with seperate language, culture and indentity should in fact be dominated by a group of people of a different language, culture and identity simply because there are less than them and the two groups happen to live in the same island? Do you really think that was the intent of those that promote and wrote those rights that it should be used in such a way?

Piratis wrote:All I am saying dear Insan, is that we made our maximum compromise by accepting a solution based on federation. Instead of recognizing our move and do some serious compromises too, you are telling me that accepting a federal solution was not a compromise but your right and you expect from us to do even more compromises?


Yes you have said this many times and we have heard you. It does not make your position any more consistent no matter how much you repeqt it.

You have said we have no right to these 'compromises'
You have said we have no right to anything as a group except as a minority.
You have also accepted that TC should have a RIGHT to block decisions like 'should the offical language of Cyprus be Greek only' or 'Enosis'

You remain inconsistent. Refusing we have any RIGHT to anything other than the rights of a minority whilst also saying you agree we have a RIGHT to some things more that minorites have a right too.

Piratis wrote:It should be clear to you and everybody that accepting a federal solution was our final compromise. If you want to bargain, then you will not bargain against our max compromise, but against our 100% legal rights without a single discount.


In the 'items for sale' section of this forum you offer an old laptop for sale. Your price is simply too high. It is however your minimum price (you maximum final compromise). If I say to you I am interested in a settlement (an agreed sale) but that your price is too high (which it is btw) you then tell me that this is already your minimum price - if I want to negotiate the price is actualy not £295 but £500. I can either accept your minimum price or negotiate from £500. This is your idea of compromise and negotation. To me it is neither. It is simply an insistance that I accept your price, no matter how overpriced it is or what eveidence there is that others also consider it overpriced or I forget a deal. Thats not compromise or negotiation. Thats take it or leave it (and if you leave it you will be my enemy in the case of Cyprus).
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:20 pm

It is obvious that for Erolz, there is always an excuse why other similar groups in Cyprus and abroad are not "peoples" with self-determination rights, while the TCs are.

The Hispanics in the US are both Americans and Hispanics. The same way we are both Cypriots and Greeks. And it is exactly the same for you: Both Cypriots and Turkish. If you are just Turkish and not Cypriots, then take a boat and go to Turkey, because you do not belong here. If you are both Cypriots and Turkish then your case is no different than the one of the Hispanic or African americans.

You want to create special laws that will apply only for you. International laws are not created to serve you. International laws are there to be obeyed, something you refuse to do for several decades already.

I have asked you before and will try and ask you again. Do you really think that the spirit of the 'right to self determination' as it is written was really intended to support your assertion that TC should have no rights in Cyprus except those of a minority.

Most definitely yes. Thats the same spirit that Armenians in Cyprus are a minority, the same spirit that blacks and hispanics are a minority in the US, the same spirit that Russians are a minority in the Baltic countries etc. The spirit is one and it applies to everyone.

You remain inconsistent. Refusing we have any RIGHT to anything other than the rights of a minority whilst also saying you agree we have a RIGHT to some things more that minorities have a right too.


If you look at your question there is the answer. One thing is your right and another thing is what I agree. If I believe that something you ask for is fair, then I can agree for it with no problem, even if officially it is not your right. Also I can agree on somethings as a compromise. Is this so hard for you to understand?
If you see this as inconsistencies, it is like you are asking me not to accept any logical demand from you even if they are not officially your right, and not to make any compromises either. Is this what you want?

In the 'items for sale' section of this forum you offer an old laptop for sale.

1) You are comparing apples and oranges here but anyways.
2)The price is not high. In the US the same exact Laptop is sold with an average price of 400 dollars + shipping, and computers there are always much cheaper. I know the market of used Laptops in Cyprus pretty good, and I can tell you that the price I have is very competitive. If comparable computers in Cyprus are sold at much lower prices, then if I really need to sell the computer the free market laws will kick in to force me to lower the price.
3)Yes, if I wanted to bargain, I could put a bargainable price. This is not something new, and it is actually a very common practice.

In the case of Cyprus issue, every negotiating round we were giving to you more and more. According to you we should keep making compromises until all your outrageous and illegal demands are satisfied? It is like telling me that if you ask me to give you my laptop for free then I should, simply because you asked. And if I don't give it for free then you will just steal it. Which is what you did in Cyprus, only the other way around: You stole it, and then you demand to give it to you for free (=legalize your illegal actions).
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Postby insan » Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:34 pm

The Hispanics in the US are both Americans and Hispanics. The same way we are both Cypriots and Greeks. And it is exactly the same for you: Both Cypriots and Turkish. If you are just Turkish and not Cypriots, then take a boat and go to Turkey, because you do not belong here. If you are both Cypriots and Turkish then your case is no different than the one of the Hispanic or African americans.



We are Cypriots and Turkish then why isn't our case similar with the ones who are both Americans and Wyomingites?

You still trying hard to exploit the conceptions Piratis.... there's a deep hatred in your soul which continually stimulate you to take revenge of the past upon whole TCs...
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:58 pm

We are Cypriots and Turkish then why isn't our case similar with the ones who are both Americans and Wyomingites?


Did the Wyomingites stole the land from New Yorkers?

It was their land so the deicided to joing the US federation, just like Cyprus decided to join the EU.
There is no part of Cyprus that exclusively (and legally) belongs to Turkish Cypriots.

Even following the example of Wyoming, if we had two states in Cyprus, both states would have had a Greek Cypriot majority. Do you know any state of the US that some people are forced out so some others will be a majority in that state?

Turkish Cypriots are a minority, just like Hispanics or african americans are.
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Postby insan » Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:10 pm

Did the Wyomingites stole the land from New Yorkers?


Creation of two ethnic zones is a consequence of some GCs never ending Enosis aspiration. TC side wish to fix the properties issue by giving some of the land back to its legal owners and some of the land to exchange with TC properties in South.

It was their land so the deicided to joing the US federation, just like Cyprus decided to join the EU.


It wasn't their land... After the American civil war it became their land just like two ethnic zones have been created in Cyprus after the 11 years lasted civil war of Cypriots...


There is no part of Cyprus that exclusively (and legally) belongs to Turkish Cypriots.


In between years and years the troubles we've seen; now there should be a part of Cyprus exclusively and legally belongs to TCs. And you know how it would be calculated as it was agreed in 1977 by Makarios and Denktash.

Even following the example of Wyoming, if we had two states in Cyprus, both states would have had a Greek Cypriot majority. Do you know any state of the US that some people are forced out so some others will be a majority in that state?


You still trying to exploit the meaning of conceptions Piratis.... you keep asking me do you know that, do you know this... I can ask you a thousands of do you know this and that like questiones... You said that you accepted a federal solution as a compromise but you don't want a Wyoming like federal partner in Cyprus. So with whom you will form a US like federative state in Cyprus. If TCs are minorities like the Hispanic minorities of Wyoming, who will be your Wyoming like Federation partner? Do you think that you are fooling us?


Turkish Cypriots are a minority, just like Hispanics or african americans are.


Keep dreaming the unfair and impossible... In 2005 you'll see the full trump cards... then if necessary we can talk again...[/quote]
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Postby erolz » Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:11 pm

Piratis wrote: It is obvious that for Erolz, there is always an excuse why other similar groups in Cyprus and abroad are not "peoples" with self-determination rights, while the TCs are.


Whilst there is no expert in these matter anywhere in the world that would claim the marionites in Cyprus qualify as a 'people' that I am aware of, you inist that if they are not the TC can not be either.

Every expert on these matters agrees that where a 'criteria' approach is used to determine the status of a people one of the prinicpal criteria is 'numbers'. Every ruling given down by UN or other international body accepts this is so. Yet for me to use this as a reason in the case of marionites in Cyprus is just for you an 'excuse' and not a 'reason'. What then can be done if one party simply refuses to accept such 'reson' when it is convenient for the to do so?

Piratis wrote:
The Hispanics in the US are both Americans and Hispanics. The same way we are both Cypriots and Greeks. And it is exactly the same for you: Both Cypriots and Turkish. If you are just Turkish and not Cypriots, then take a boat and go to Turkey, because you do not belong here. If you are both Cypriots and Turkish then your case is no different than the one of the Hispanic or African americans.


I am (partly) Turkish Cypriot. Our case is clearly different from Hispanic or African americans and I have clearly explained why this is so.

Piratis wrote:
You want to create special laws that will apply only for you.


No this is what you want us to accpet. A status of minority and then to create 'special' laws in the consitituion that will apply 'only to us' (if we are deemed a minority).

Piratis wrote:
International laws are not created to serve you. International laws are there to be obeyed, something you refuse to do for several decades already.


International laws are created to serve _people_. They are created to promote peace and justice. They do change and evolve. If they are insufficent to server these needs then they need to be changed - leagly and with consent.

Piratis wrote:
Most definitely yes. Thats the same spirit that Armenians in Cyprus are a minority, the same spirit that blacks and hispanics are a minority in the US, the same spirit that Russians are a minority in the Baltic countries etc. The spirit is one and it applies to everyone.


If it really is your belief that the 'intent' of the laws and rights to self determination were designed to give GC a right to domination over another group of people of such significant numbers and totaly different culture language and desires that share the island of cyprus - then I despair. It is just yet more evidence that you will twist and manipulate anything that you can to meet your objectives.

Piratis wrote:
If you look at your question there is the answer. One thing is your right and another thing is what I agree. If I believe that something you ask for is fair, then I can agree for it with no problem, even if officially it is not your right. Also I can agree on somethings as a compromise. Is this so hard for you to understand?
If you see this as inconsistencies, it is like you are asking me not to accept any logical demand from you even if they are not officially your right, and not to make any compromises either. Is this what you want?


You can not agree that we have a RIGHT to equality on matters like the offical language in Cyprus and insist that the only RIGHTS we have are those of a minority. To do so is totaly inconsistent (but is consistent with a fear that you will grant 'expceptional rights' to get what you want and then seek to take away these rights by arguing they are 'exceptional' and not consistent with our rights as a minority).

Piratis wrote:

2)The price is not high. In the US the same exact Laptop is sold with an average price of 400 dollars + shipping, and computers there are always much cheaper.


The average price in the US including shipping is around $425 and this is from 'companies / shops' that includes limited warranties and not a sale from an individual. You want $618.
OK so the US market may be unfair comparision. You are in Cyprus which means the market you are in is the EU market. In the UK you can get a better 'new / refurbished' machine (Thinkpad 600X - 500mhz processor and 12gig HD) for £293 including VAT vs your price of £345 (uk pounds).
http://www.sterlingxs.co.uk/scpages/ibm ... ptops.html

However the fairess comparrsion would be a private sale. Here the price plumets - here as some 'comparables' for you

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 57354&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 17135&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 20524&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 26783&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 12096&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 77667&rd=1

Your non negotiable minimum price is too high as is your non negotiable minimal position on Cyprus

Piratis wrote:
I know the market of used Laptops in Cyprus pretty good, and I can tell you that the price I have is very competitive.


and I know the market in used laptops in the EU - the market you are in and the price you have is not competetive.

Piratis wrote:
If comparable computers in Cyprus are sold at much lower prices, then if I really need to sell the computer the free market laws will kick in to force me to lower the price.


Have you sold yet then? Has 40 years of 'not selling your solution in Cyprus' forced you to 'lower your price'? No it has not.

Piratis wrote:
In the case of Cyprus issue, every negotiating round we were giving to you more and more.


You have given us more and more? Yet you insist that we have no rights as people greater than those of a minority? Until you can accept that TC do have some rights greater than a minority you offer nothing imo. Agreeing these things on the basis that they are not rights but merely gifts from GC is not giving anything. Insisting that we can have 'concessions' in the consitituion whilst also insisting we have no RIGHT to these concessions makes them worthless.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:40 pm

You can insist as much as you want. This will not change the facts that the invasion and occupation is and will remain illegal.

Erolz, I ordered things from US and UK many times. I know very well prices of computers, I know where to get coupons, I know how to check the company ratings before I order. I also know the Cyprus market well and I can tell you that the price I have there is a competive one for Cyprus. If all customers were like me, I can tell you from now that all computer stores in Cyprus would have gone banckrupt. This doesn't happen though, because many people don't like to give their credit cards online and they prefer to test the equipment before they buy it. (which something very smart to do in the case of used Laptops)

If you noticed from the links you gave, non of them will ship to Cyprus. If they did, the price + shipping to Cyprus would be approximately the same and maybe higher than mine. (plus you would have to wait for up to three weeks until it is delivered here)
By the way, I hope you realize that ebay is an actions site and prices shown there do not represent the final price.



Have you sold yet then? Has 40 years of 'not selling your solution in Cyprus' forced you to 'lower your price'? No it has not.


They answer is given:

According to you we should keep making compromises until all your outrageous and illegal demands are satisfied? It is like telling me that if you ask me to give you my laptop for free then I should, simply because you asked. And if I don't give it for free then you will just steal it. Which is what you did in Cyprus, only the other way around: You stole it, and then you demand to give it to you for free (=legalize your illegal actions).
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Postby erolz » Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:10 pm

Piratis wrote: You can insist as much as you want. This will not change the facts that the invasion and occupation is and will remain illegal.


The intial intervention was not illegal. You can argue that actions following the intervention were illegal and actualy I agree that many of them were.
However I do not believe that you can only look at these illegalites in isolation and ignore illegalites before them that led to them. I do not say that prior illegalites 'justify' or make legal the subsequent ones. What I do say is that if you wish to find a solution today to ALL these illegalites must be dealt with as a whole based on 'fair justice'. You can not do that by insisting that only some of them should be 'reversed' and others ignored, which is your position. That to me is not an attempt to restore 'justice' - it is just and attempt to restore justice where it would benefit GC and ignore justice and 'legalise' the 'illegal' it where it would not.

Piratis wrote: Erolz, I ordered things from US .....


I used this as an 'example' of your approach to reaonableness and compromise and negoitation. If you think £345 is a 'fair' and 'reasonable' non negotiable price then that is your view. I differ in this view. I would not pay £345 for what you offer.

Piratis wrote:
If you noticed from the links you gave, non of them will ship to Cyprus. If they did, the price + shipping to Cyprus would be approximately the same and maybe higher than mine. (plus you would have to wait for up to three weeks until it is delivered here)
By the way, I hope you realize that ebay is an actions site and prices shown there do not represent the final price.


Ok how do you think your price (which also does not include shipping) compares with this
http://groups.msn.com/cyprusliving/fors ... 0928106085

For another £cyp 75 you get a 850Mhz P3 processor vs a 400Mhz P2. 256MB ram vs 192mb. 20gig HD vs 6gig HD. 14.1inch screen vs 13.3 and CDR/RW vs CD ROM (and probably a working battery). I know which I would chose.
Do you still inist that your offer is a good price when you can get this - for brand new and from a reputable company (with a .cy website) delievered to Cyprus? Personaly I would not say so.
http://www.expansys.com.cy/product.asp?code=107928

So would you be willing to value my laptop for me as I have been considering an unpgrade and based on yourt idea of what things are worth it might well mean a sale would be compelling. Its a Toshiba sat 1410 with 1.5mhz celeron p4 512MB ram 14.1 inch screen 20 gig HD cd/dvd and geforce4 420 to go 16mb graphics? Want to make me an offer based on your idea of 'Cyprus prices'? If it in anyway realtes to the price you have put on your laptop then I'll be very interested.

Still this is all way off topic (appologies). It was only supposed to be an 'example'. I will leave it noe (pending an offer for my laptop that is)
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:18 pm

However I do not believe that you can only look at these illegalites in isolation and ignore illegalites before them that led to them. I do not say that prior illegalites 'justify' or make legal the subsequent ones. What I do say is that if you wish to find a solution today to ALL these illegalites must be dealt with as a whole based on 'fair justice'. You can not do that by insisting that only some of them should be 'reversed' and others ignored, which is your position. That to me is not an attempt to restore 'justice' - it is just and attempt to restore justice where it would benefit GC and ignore justice and 'legalise' the 'illegal' it where it would not.

I agree that all illegalites should be dealt with. I never said that only GCs should be able to return to their homes. TCs should also. If we are going to compensate GCs for losses from 74 until now, then we will compensate TCs for losses before 74 etc. So I 100% agree that we should deal with all illegalities. And I 100% agree that prior illegalities can not justify or make legal subsequent ones. You are the one who usually (except now) claims that because of some illegalities of GCs in the past, all illegal actions of TCs and Turkey are excused for ever.

Personaly I would not say so.

Did I ask from you to buy it???
This just shows how ridiculous you are. You came in the Cyprus problem forum, to argue that I should sell my computer at a lower price because some dude in another forum was selling a Dell for less, or because a UK or US company is selling a computer at a good price. :shock: :shock:

I hope that you will not come to steal my computer because you think that the price is too high, like you did in the case of Cyprus. You obviously have no problem to disobey laws and commit crimes just because you think you are right.

Anyways, this just shows at what level you can drop the discussion when you run out of arguments. It is my fault that I let you drop me to this level.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:05 pm

Erol wrote: namely that TC as a community as a people as a significant number of people with seperate language, culture and indentity should in fact be dominated by a group of people of a different language, culture and identity simply because there are less than them and the two groups happen to live in the same island?


The keyword here is dominated. According to the human rights approach a group must first prove the existence of the domination, second that the domination is hurting their rights and interests, and third that there is no other option available than to have self determination rights.

What we actually have today in Cyprus is domination of a foreign power on both groups of Cyprus. So the first self determination right is that of all the people of Cyprus to get their independence (their self determination right back) from that foreign power (Turkey). After that is achieved then the smallest group (the TC) has to prove domination and hurt of their interests from the largest group to enable it claim self determination right towards autonomy or Federation.
The past events of the 60s is not an evidence in my opinion because now the Cyprus Republic is in Europe which presumably quarantees no hurt of the interests of the TC group.So the pre-requisite that there is "no other alternative" before claiming self determination rights does not currently exist.

The scope of this post is that if we are going to use theories then we can support whatever position we like.
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