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Positions of the Parties on Key Issues: What is better for u

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Positions of the Parties on Key Issues: What is better for u

Postby insan » Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:47 pm

Positions of the Parties on Key Issues


Sovereignty and Powers


GC: Greek Cypriots say that bi-communal, bizonal federation of two cantons with one sovereignty should be established by both communities. A canton will have maximum autonomy in internal administration, while the federation should have power to function in key matters.


TC: The Turkish Cypriots say that each community should form a sovereign state and join in a confederation as equals.




Presidency


GC: The President will be elected from the Greek Cypriot community and the vice president from the Turkish Cypriot community. To be elected, each may be required to obtain a certain percentage of votes from the other community.


TC: A rotating presidency will prevent one community retaining control of the office. Each community separately must elect its own representative to fill the office of president or vice president.




Territory


GC: The Greek Cypriots accepted the map in the U.N. set of ideas, subject to marginal changes. Turkish Cypriot territory on the island must fall under 29+% to allow the maximum number of refugees to remain under Greek Cypriot administration.



TC: The Turkish Cypriots rejected the map included in the U.N. set of ideas. Previously proposing a state comprising 29+% of the territory of the island, Denktash refers only to the 32% of territory Turkish Cypriots administer.




Security/Turkish Troops/Guarantees


GC: Clerides rejects Turkish guarantee, right of unilateral intervention, and military presence. Proposes an international force of guarantors, including Greece and Turkey, with a U.N. Security Council mandate, stationed on a demilitarized Cyprus.


TC: The 1960 Treaty of Guarantee, whereby Turkey rightfully protects the Turkish Cypriot community, is in force and must not be diluted. Turkish troop presence may be cut or reduced if Turkey retains its Treaty rights in a peace accord.




Displaced Persons and Property Rights


GC: A majority of the Greek Cypriot refugees must return to their homes under local Greek Cypriot administration; remaining refugees must have the right to return. Turkish Cypriots cannot be compensated for property they did not own in 1974. Turkish Cypriots may opt to return to properties they owned in the south in 1974 or to be compensated for them at 1974 value plus inflation. All Turkish Cypriots to be resettled will be compensated. Turkish Cypriot misappropriation of Greek Cypriot properties is null and void.



TC: Turkish Cypriots to be resettled should be compensated at the current value for the property they occupy at the time of resettlement. Greek Cypriots unable to return to property they owned in 1974 will be compensated from the sale of Turkish Cypriot property in the south. The Turkish Cypriot property in the south roughly equals the Greek Cypriot property in the north. Deeds to Greek Cypriot properties in the north allocated to Turkish Cypriots in the north since 1974 are legally valid. A Joint Property Claims Commission composed of an equal number of Greek- and Turkish Cypriots should be formed to moderate a "global exchange" of titles.



Settlers

Turkish side demands all settlers who had been granted TRNC citizenship to stay. GC side opposes and demands less settlers to stay.



Let's discuss those key issues...
Last edited by insan on Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:53 pm

Sovereignty and Powers


The result should be a federation very similar to what they have in the US. Each state has autonomy in many matters, but the central state is above all.

Presidency

Again this should be similar to what they have to the US. Preferably, president and vice president are elected together (USA style) and one of them should be GC and the other one TC.

Territory

I believe 29% is too high for two reasons:
1)Such a high percentage will automatically mean that many GCs will not be allowed to return. (because if they do they can end up being the majority in the TC state, something that will not be allowed)
2)It is simply unfair for the 18% to keep 29% of land.

24%-25% is I believe a fair compromise, that will also limit possible human right violations.

Security/Turkish Troops/Guarantees

Guarantees: UN and EU, but not any separate countries.

Security: Cyprus will be demilitarized. Each state will have its own police, EU will take care of Cyprus security as a whole

Turkish Troops: They should not have the right to intervene, but a small military base can be given to Turkey in the north until Turkey becomes a full member of the EU. (after that Turkey will be represented/participate in the EU force in Cyprus.)

Displaced Persons and Property Rights


Everybody should have the right to return. If in order to maintain the majority of TCs in the TC state some properties of GCs should go to TCs, then those GCs should be compensated quickly (within a couple of years) by the TC state (or Turkey). Until they are compensated the original owners should maintain all their properties and they can sell or rent them themselves.

Settlers


A small number can stay and this number will be agreed from the beginning. (10-20 thousands) Then who exactly will stay will be decided on a case by case by a mixed TC-GC committee. (we don't want any gray wolves or Turkish secret agents getting Cyprus citizenship).
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Postby insan » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:33 pm

Sovereignty and Powers

The result should be a federation very similar to what they have in the US. Each state has autonomy in many matters, but the central state is above all.


If the executives of the central state will be comprised equal number of GC and TC senators, it's Ok.


Presidency

Again this should be similar to what they have to the US. Preferably, president and vice president are elected together (USA style) and one of them should be GC and the other one TC.



I partly support the TC position regarding this issue.
A rotating presidency will prevent one community retaining control of the office. But each community together must elect the president and vice president. For one term President Gc/ Vice President TC and the next term President TC/ Vice President GC.


Territory


I believe 29% is too high for two reasons:
1)Such a high percentage will automatically mean that many GCs will not be allowed to return. (because if they do they can end up being the majority in the TC state, something that will not be allowed)
2)It is simply unfair for the 18% to keep 29% of land.

24%-25% is I believe a fair compromise, that will also limit possible human right violations.


In my opinion the percentages of the territories don't mean a lot in itself. What important is the economic viability and productivity of the land. It can be calculated easily by the experts. Then the private + state land share of GC refugees who are willing to live in TC constituent state is appended; in condition of not exceed %21 of total TC population of TC constituent state.

I really believe that both parties could easily come to a jointly agreed percentage of territory for each of them. But unfortunately, unwillingness and lazyness killing the spirit of reunification.




Security/Turkish Troops/Guarantees



Guarantees: UN and EU, but not any separate countries.

Security: Cyprus will be demilitarized. Each state will have its own police, EU will take care of Cyprus security as a whole

Turkish Troops: They should not have the right to intervene, but a small military base can be given to Turkey in the north until Turkey becomes a full member of the EU. (after that Turkey will be represented/participate in the EU force in Cyprus.)


As far as I know EU doesn't guarantee any of its members sovereignity or take responsibility of its security. And as it is known UN peace keeping forces aren't trust worthy for TCs.

I think at least a 15 years of transition period is needed for demilitarization of Cyprus. For this period; a loosened, bilateral intervention right should be given to the guarantor powers. Otherwise neither the vast majority of TCs nor Turkey accept any solution which avoid this. The conditions of intervention should be well described in treaty of guarantee.




Displaced Persons and Property Rights

Everybody should have the right to return. If in order to maintain the majority of TCs in the TC state some properties of GCs should go to TCs, then those GCs should be compensated quickly (within a couple of years) by the TC state (or Turkey). Until they are compensated the original owners should maintain all their properties and they can sell or rent them themselves.




I agree.





Settlers

A small number can stay and this number will be agreed from the beginning. (10-20 thousands) Then who exactly will stay will be decided on a case by case by a mixed TC-GC committee. (we don't want any gray wolves or Turkish secret agents getting Cyprus citizenship).


Do you consider the settlers Cyprus born children as settlers? I think they shouldn't be considered as settlers. According to some sources the settlers which have been brought by Turkey is around 50.000 and their Cyprus born children number is around 70.000.

The estimated number of settlers which have been brought afterwards 1994 and their Cyprus born little children might be around 50.000. I think these settlers together with their children can easily repatriated. In the end 30.000 settlers and their 40.000 Cyprus born children will stay in Cyprus and be granted United Cyprus citizenship.

If any of them, moreover any of the real TCs or GCs get caught in secret agent stuff against United Cyprus; can be judged by the Cyprus laws and punished...
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Postby erolz » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:49 pm

Piratis wrote:
Settlers

A small number can stay and this number will be agreed from the beginning. (10-20 thousands) Then who exactly will stay will be decided on a case by case by a mixed TC-GC committee. (we don't want any gray wolves or Turkish secret agents getting Cyprus citizenship).


Should this in your opinion apply only to settlers from Turkey or to all settlers in the North including those who have come from European coutries like the UK?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:17 am

Should this in your opinion apply only to settlers from Turkey or to all settlers in the North including those who have come from European coutries like the UK?

It depends. Are those people living in land/house that belonged to TCs, or they were given GC property?
If its the first, then they can stay in Cyprus without the need for a Cyprus citizenship (like all other EU citizens can).
If its the second then it is up to you if you want to include them in the 10-20 thousand that will stay or in the rest that should leave. Those people knew all along that what they were doing was illegal. (and ignorance of the law is not an excuse either).

Of course those that are thieves and such, that are fugitives there, will run away themselves when they see a solution coming.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:18 pm

The funny thing is that the TCs want a limited number of GCs in their constituent state (being afraid that otherwise they would lose control) whereas at the same time don't seem to worry about an unlimited number of settlers that would lead them to the direct control of Turkey. Eroglus party for example (30% of the voting power) consists entilery of ex - militant settlers.(I am not sure about this please correct me if I am wrong).

The matter of settlers has 2 issues.
1) First the legal responsibilities of the ones who either brought them here or allowed them to come. All these responsibilities belong entirely to Turkey.
2) The relevant human rights, international law and EU aquis. I am not sure what the provisions of each of these are. Assume someone was born here and he is 10 years old. Does he have the human right to stay or should he and his parents go back to where they came from? Furthermore do his parents have any right to stay? How about his younger brothers and sisters? Suppose he is 19 years old and (because he is a grown up) I assume he has the right to stay. Does this right offer "staying rights" to his parents or his younger brothers? I don't think so. Anyway like I said in previous posts now we are in Europe, and there is absolutely no way the matter of settlrers will be resolved in any other way than in relation to the human rights, the international law and the EU aquis.

Insan mentioned a number of 50, 000 settlers and 70, 000 children of theirs who were granted citizenship in the occupied areas. The problem is that this citizenship is not legal, so actually we end up to examining the whole matter right from the start on a case to case basis. Who will do this examining is not a problem, it can be done by EU or UN officials.

There is a third issue concerning the settlers. If their future status and whether they will be citizens of the new United Cyprus is not clarified in advance, no one of them can be included in the voting list of ANY referendum. Such a referendum could be declared void the very next day - in fact the referendum concerning the Anan Plan could be declared void for this reason alone, unless all settlers were allowed to stay. (In fact according to the Anan plan all settlers would stay - but that’s another story. )

So before any new referendum would take place the whole population in the occupied areas should be recorded, the case of each and every settler and his children be examined separetely, and a catalogue be created listing the original TCs, the settlers who can stay with full Political rights, and those who must leave immediately. And this catalogue to be approved by the GCs too and be subject to re - examination and verification after a solution by the Central state.
Together with that catalogue any agreement must include Turkey’s responsibility to pay all costs for those people to be housed in new houses, as well as pay rent for the properties they use until their new houses are built.

Then we come to the next question. We all know that the Original TCs are now 70 - 80K. Suppose the number of settlers who for human rights reasons, international agreements, and Eu aquis laws comes to be 20, 60 or even 120K like Insan said. What can anyone do to limit this number? The answer is nothing! And the next question is: Since nobody can limit the right of those people to stay and thus limit their numbers who on earth can limit the human right of 200K GCs to return? The answer again is nobody! And the final question: How can a majority of TCs+settlers be quaranteed in a Federal solution unless the size of the TC state is limited to a very small percentage? For example if the TC FedState is only 18% (half the size of the occupied areas) then potentially 100K Gcs will gradually return and if some TCs return to the GC FedState the TCs+sellters will eventually become a minority in their own state!

So in my opimion although a Federal solution is possible in the beginning it will not provide for a stable system in the long run! In the end it is quite possible we will end up with 2 GC FedStates! So I repeat once again: A stable system is a Unitary Bizonal state. In which the TCs will be granted exclussive administrative rights of one part/or zone of the state irrespective of their numbers but with respect to where the majority of them lives. And in which they will have full Political rights in the high ranking positions of the Unitary State Government.

PS. I know some members of this forum will start shouting again that I am a fanatic and an extremist and that I want to dominate the TCs. Some others may say the Fed model has already been agreed a long time ago so it cannot be changed. Well just explain me how we can have a stable Bizonal Federal System that can survive through the years to come, without limiting the human rights of anyone, and when you do that, I will admit I was wrong. . . .
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Postby Piratis » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:38 pm

For example if the TC FedState is only 18% (half the size of the occupied areas) then potentially 100K Gcs will gradually return and if some TCs return to the GC FedState the TCs+sellters will eventually become a minority in their own state!

This depends on which 18% will be under the TC state. It is not just the persentage, it is also which areas will be included in this percentage. Obviously an 18% land for an 18% minority is the most fair. However, it could be acceptable if TC state gets around 24%.
This is because higly GC populated areas like Famagusta, Morfou and Karpasia will be returned, and therefore a lot less than 100.000 GCs will need to return under TC administration. This will secure that TCs will be a majority in their state.

If you have exact numbers of refugees from each village/city, then we could actually do some calculations to see how exact (or not) my estimations are.
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Postby insan » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:30 am

Re brother Mihalis,

You well expressed everything honestly and fairly... you know that I too support the unitary state rather than a federal one but it's been almost 30 years both parties accepted to seek the solution on a federative basis.

Under todays circumstances which is a consequence of past 30 years and by taking everything into consideration then expecting a solution based on a unitary state is just a dream.

If majority of both parties had supported the unitary state idea, I might tell you that our dream is comming true....


I'm aware of that all settlers are illegal in Cyprus but Annan's UN Plan which also backed by US and EU allowed all settlers who were registered TRNC citizens.

I don't know how those champions of human rights accepted such an illegality that directly violates the Geneva Convention.

Oddly enough; I haven't heard any of the GC journalists making an interview with Gul, Talat or Erdogan asking some questions regarding the settlers and other anti-democratic provisions of the Annan Plan...

M Birand interviewed almost all of the leaders and politicians who were and are in key positions and asked whatever he wished... So why don't GC or Greek journalists do the same thing?

Did they invite them and they rejected?

I really wonder what would their answers would be when they were asked what do they think about the violation of human rights.

Someone should ask them:

1- 50 settlers had brought by Turkey, can you tell us Mr Gul or Talat is it a war crime according to the Geneva Convention and international law or not?

2- What do you think about a bi-regional unitary state as a solution basis to the Cyprus problem?


And so many questiones might be asked to them which would make them to reveal their thoughts regarding those issues. Even though those questiones could be asked to De Soto or some EU politicians.


Let alone those above mentioned individuals, the GC media even didn't ask such questions to Akinci, İzcan or Durduran... and neither they put forward their point of view concerning those issues.


So my brother Mihalis under these circumstances where every self-seeking groups and individuals have some secret plans to solve the Cyprus problem what could I do other than base my opinions on the feasible one.

I'm trying to find the logic behind their secret plans...

It seems to me that Turkey strongly trusts her trump cards and the Greek side strongly trust her "friends" which perhaps promised them to make the cost of Cyprus problem too much for Turkey. As Piratis who is a fiery supporter of Papadopulos policies; they will do anything able to be done to make Turkey obbey their demands.


I wonder what will they do to weaken and sicken Turkey to give up. Would they give support to the PKK terrorists or Armenian lobbies? Or anything else I don't know? Perhaps they will block Turkey's EU accession talks... Or perhaps they wait the new president of US...
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Postby insan » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:36 am

If you have exact numbers of refugees from each village/city, then we could actually do some calculations to see how exact (or not) my estimations are.



I wonder why didn't Papadopulos ask this question when he was negotiating... Or why we aren't the negotiators and they are...
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Postby erolz » Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:15 am

MicAtCyp wrote: The funny thing is that the TCs want a limited number of GCs in their constituent state (being afraid that otherwise they would lose control) whereas at the same time don't seem to worry about an unlimited number of settlers that would lead them to the direct control of Turkey.


Whatever their number the reality is that the 'settlers' (turkish mainland settlers) are econimicaly and politcaly weak in North Cyprus. What % of the wealth off the North do you think they own vs that owned by TC. How many MPs in the North are turkish mainland settlers vs TC?

MicAtCyp wrote:The matter of settlers has 2 issues.
1) First the legal responsibilities of the ones who either brought them here or allowed them to come. All these responsibilities belong entirely to Turkey.


So settlers in the north that have come from UK or Germany or USA are entirely the responsibility of Turkey?

MicAtCyp wrote:2) The relevant human rights, international law and EU aquis. I am not sure what the provisions of each of these are. Assume someone was born here and he is 10 years old. Does he have the human right to stay or should he and his parents go back to where they came from? Furthermore do his parents have any right to stay? How about his younger brothers and sisters? Suppose he is 19 years old and (because he is a grown up) I assume he has the right to stay. Does this right offer "staying rights" to his parents or his younger brothers?


Surely you are not suggesting that human rights can be complex and anything other than black and white?

Insan wrote:I'm aware of that all settlers are illegal in Cyprus but Annan's UN Plan which also backed by US and EU allowed all settlers who were registered TRNC citizens.


And that presumably includes any settlers that came from places other than Turkey. Surely to allow them to settle in the North was no less illegal than Turkish mainland settlers? No less a distortion of the islands demographics?
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