Cyprus-Forum.com

[bg_turk]

The future of Cyprus is one united country with equal citizens, democracy and human rights either with TCs or without them. Whoever doesn't like our island is free to move out.

How about legalizing the TRNC, a sovereign country with equal citizens,democracy and human rights either with GCs or without them. Whoever doesn't like the republic is free not to return.

[Viewpoint]

Who said it is against the will of the great majority of TCs? It is not. The majority of them suppor the occupation and the illegality.

If this were the case TCs would have vetoed down the Annan Plan.

With this view of your about TCs, it makes me wonder why you support unification. Is it because you truely have faith in living with TCs in peace and harmony, or you just want to put an end to the "illegalities"?

bg_turk isnt that obvious my friend, Piratis wants the "swing in power" where Gcs have total control of the whole island and TCs are put in the place as a minority.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I never said that you will and I do not expect you to do so. As long as you can force the violation of our human rights and the occupation of our country in order to gain on our loss you will continue to doing it.

You have to come to terms with it Piratis we are a partner not just any minority... in the future you have to agree a marriage with Turkish Cypriots, does this partnership make us just a minority?? Please answer honestly.

Who are "we" in this case? USA has 52 states, not 2. States are geographic segments of a country, they do not separate people based on their race. In USA they have states and they still have minorities. The two things are irrelevant.
What you are trying for is not one Cyprus with 2 federal states, but 2 separate countries in a loose confederation. Something that is not acceptable.

We in this case are the GC and TC communities. The states has its own unique history which moulded its future, our is different and we need the correct formulation that will solve our problems and this appears to be a BBF of 2 states under the Federal umbrella of the United Cyprus Republic. The UN USA EU UK Turkey Greece TCs 25% of GCs support this form of a solution. It also appears that this will be the basis for a restart of negotiations which your leadership says it accepts or are they just paying lip service until the "swing in power" occurs? arent they being genuine in what they declare?

The future of Cyprus is one united country with equal citizens, democracy and human rights either with TCs or without them. Whoever doesn't like our island is free to move out

Unfortunately for you it will be with TCs as equal partners under a Federal structure and plenty of safeguards.

[Piratis]

for GCs only unfotunately!

No for TCs as well. If you disagree then tell me which of the human rights of TCs I deny. (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html)

Why cant those Turkish Cypriots that want to go back to their home, return to their properties in the south NOW?

Because they support the occupation and the illegalities.

So what are TCs supposed to do?

Declare to the whole world that "TRNC" does not exist and they they are under the occupation of Turkey and the want legality to return but Turkey does not allow them to do so. When they do that, then I would agree that TCs are innocent.
However we both know that this is not the case. So your demand that the TCs that currently illegally occupy the 36% of Cyprus should be given additional land so this 18% minority will hold 45% of land is ridiculous.

This one is not a really very valid reason. TCs and Turks have a history in cyprus, maybe not as long, but still they are not willing to write off Kibris as a hellenic island.

We didn't ask from them to write off anything. And you are the one who talks about hellenic island, not me. I talk about an island that belongs to its people, Cypriots, no matter what ethnic background they have.

How about legalizing the TRNC, a sovereign country with equal citizens,democracy and human rights either with GCs or without them. Whoever doesn't like the republic is free not to return.

Which is exactly what the TCs and Turkey have been trying for 30 years now. The pseudo puppet state of Turkey will never be recognized as anything other than an illegal pseudo state.

TCs are put in the place as a minority.

TCs are a a minority of 18%.

You have to come to terms with it Piratis we are a partner not just any minority... in the future you have to agree a marriage with Turkish Cypriots, does this partnership make us just a minority?? Please answer honestly.

Nobody said we can not be partners. We have the 82% "share" of this partnership and you the 18%.

It also appears that this will be the basis for a restart of negotiations which your leadership says it accepts or are they just paying lip service until the "swing in power" occurs? arent they being genuine in what they declare?

You might be able to force us to agree on something by having a gun on our head. However I hope you understand what will happen once we will get that gun on our hand. It is up to you to decide if you want human rights and democracy or not. If you do not accept these principles then when the balance of power will change we will treat you in the same way. An unfair solution is not the solution. It is simply part of the circle of blood that will continue.

Unfortunately for you it will be with TCs as equal partners under a Federal structure and plenty of safeguards.

Each TC individual should be equal to each GC individual in one united democratic country were human rights are respected. Anything that violates our human and democratic rights will be simply rejected.

[bg_turk]

for GCs only unfotunately!

No for TCs as well. If you disagree then tell me which of the human rights of TCs I deny. (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html)

You deny their right of return to their homes NOW. You only support it conditionally on the fact that GCs return as well, which cannot be classified as full support. If you insist on the Republic of Cyprus as the sole legitimate government, and if you insist it is a representative of all cypriots regardless of ethnic origin, you should support the return of all citizens regardless of their ethnic origins. If citizens of greek origin cannot return to their homes because of external factors, citizens of turkish origin should not be forced from or barred from returning to their homes in order to accomodate the needs of Greek Cypriot refugees as if GCs are intrinsically more important that TCs.
Anything else can be regarded as discrimination based on ethnicity. You cannot deny citizens their right of return because they are of the same ethnic origin as the perceived "oppressor". You cannot accomodate citizens of Greek origin at the expens of citizens of Turkish origin, and say this temporary expopriation of TC property is justifiable on the grounds that TC are of the same ethnicity as the external "agressor". If you want a full return to legalities, stop your own illegalities first and accept TC as equal citizens NOW, maybe then they will want to joing the RoC by their own initiative and denounce Turkey for good! Until that day TCs will view turkey as their savior and never accept to live under the unitary domination of GCs.

[bg_turk]

Why cant those Turkish Cypriots that want to go back to their home, return to their properties in the south NOW?

Because they support the occupation and the illegalities.

But how about those that do not support the "illegalities". Why can't they return to their homes?

[cypezokyli]

bg_turk wrote:

You deny their right of return to their homes NOW. You only support it conditionally on the fact that GCs return as well, which cannot be classified as full support. If you insist on the Republic of Cyprus as the sole legitimate government, and if you insist it is a representative of all cypriots regardless of ethnic origin, you should support the return of all citizens regardless of their ethnic origins. If citizens of greek origin cannot return to their homes because of external factors, citizens of turkish origin should not be forced from or barred from returning to their homes in order to accomodate the needs of Greek Cypriot refugees as if GCs are intrinsically more important that TCs.
Anything else can be regarded as discrimination based on ethnicity. You cannot deny citizens their right of return because they are of the same ethnic origin as the perceived "oppressor". You cannot accomodate citizens of Greek origin at the expens of citizens of Turkish origin, and say this temporary expopriation of TC property is justifiable on the grounds that TC are of the same ethnicity as the external "agressor". If you want a full return to legalities, stop your own illegalities first and accept TC as equal citizens NOW, maybe then they will want to joing the RoC by their own initiative and denounce Turkey for good! Until that day TCs will view turkey as their savior and never accept to live under the unitary domination of GCs.

i guess u r right on this one bg_turk
but that would mean in effect that those tcs accept to be members of the republic of cyprus (and not the gc administration) its constitution (whatever is left from it) and its laws.
quite a dilemma for both

[bg_turk]

bg_turk wrote:
i guess u r right on this one bg_turk
but that would mean in effect that those tcs accept to be members of the republic of cyprus (and not the gc administration) its constitution (whatever is left from it) and its laws.
quite a dilemma for both

If the RoC denies the legal rights even of those TCs that are willing to return under its umbrella, what hope is there for the other TCs to ever accept such an entity as a legitimate government? It is not a dillemma it is an obvious choice for Turkish Cypriots, and it will continue to be so as long as the RoC continues to ignore its responsibility towards its citizens of turkish origin. In fact I am surprised no TC has to date applied to the European Court of Human Rights to demand his property in the South.

[garbitsch]

for GCs only unfotunately!

No for TCs as well. If you disagree then tell me which of the human rights of TCs I deny. (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html)

You deny their right of return to their homes NOW. You only support it conditionally on the fact that GCs return as well, which cannot be classified as full support. If you insist on the Republic of Cyprus as the sole legitimate government, and if you insist it is a representative of all cypriots regardless of ethnic origin, you should support the return of all citizens regardless of their ethnic origins. If citizens of greek origin cannot return to their homes because of external factors, citizens of turkish origin should not be forced from or barred from returning to their homes in order to accomodate the needs of Greek Cypriot refugees as if GCs are intrinsically more important that TCs.
Anything else can be regarded as discrimination based on ethnicity. You cannot deny citizens their right of return because they are of the same ethnic origin as the perceived "oppressor". You cannot accomodate citizens of Greek origin at the expens of citizens of Turkish origin, and say this temporary expopriation of TC property is justifiable on the grounds that TC are of the same ethnicity as the external "agressor". If you want a full return to legalities, stop your own illegalities first and accept TC as equal citizens NOW, maybe then they will want to joing the RoC by their own initiative and denounce Turkey for good! Until that day TCs will view turkey as their savior and never accept to live under the unitary domination of GCs.

I've been expressing the double standard, but some people do not seem that they understand it. The Greek side talks about human rights and democracy as long as they suit them. The G.Cs sue Turkey for not being able to enjoy their properties in the north, at the same time the Turkish Cypriots are barred to enjoy their properties in the south by the Greek Cypriot Administration, yet the G.Cs do not give the same reaction for their T.C "compatriots".

If the RoC denies the legal rights even of those TCs that are willing to return under its umbrella, what hope is there for the other TCs to ever accept such an entity as a legitimate government? It is not a dillemma it is an obvious choice for Turkish Cypriots, and it will continue to be so as long as the RoC continues to ignore its responsibility towards its citizens of turkish origin. In fact I am surprised no TC has to date applied to the European Court of Human Rights to demand his property in the South.

I think that is because T.Cs are more depoliticised than G.Cs, since the former think there are double standards so the RoC admin will eventually find a way to save itself from any accussations regarding the properties issue. Besides, the T.Cs are not as organised as G.Cs, so a T.C might not bother to go through a very long and boring application process. I do not know, but I myself am willing to apply the court to sue the RoC government for destroying my father's house and the shop attached to it.

[Piratis]

If you insist on the Republic of Cyprus as the sole legitimate government, and if you insist it is a representative of all cypriots regardless of ethnic origin, you should support the return of all citizens regardless of their ethnic origins.

This is exactly what I support. However you support that TCs should have the 100% RoC rights while the GCs should not get their rights back!!

Also don't forget that being a citizen of RoC doesn't entail only rights, but responsibilities as well. TCs might not take all their rights from RoC but their responsibilities are also temporarily waved. Do TCs pay taxes to RoC? Do the serve 2 years in the army of RoC? If RoC was going to treat TCs as they treat GCs NOW, then the great majority of TCs would be guilty for illegalities and crimes such as treason.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem if RoC treated TCs in the exact same way as GCs today. However it is for the benefit of most TCs if RoC "forgets" about their illegalities and crimes even if that means it forgets some of their rights as well. (I said "most" because not all TCs are guilty for illegalities. Unfortunately those are only a small minority)

Of course I accept that some TCs are against the occupation of our country from Turkey and those people are victims like us. However they are victims of the Turkish occupation since thats what is causing the abnormal situation in Cyprus and not RoC.

The problem of both TCs and GCs is going to be solved simultaneously. As long as we have a problem they will have a problem too and Turkey is going to have a problem also. If the Cyprus problem becames a problem only for GCs, then what would be the motive of TCs and Turkey to solve it??