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EU Parliament to Warn Turkey of Entry-Talks Impasse Over Cyp

Benefits and problems from the EU membership.

Postby cmantas_liberal » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:19 pm

garboy, i agree with most of the yer comments.

In few words:

1) both sides shall bury the hatchet, i think that a movement from both sides, like the one in berlin in 1989 would be a good opportunity for both sides and force the leaders to find a solution without the greek/turkish/british pimpers
2) The armenian genocide was something that would come up during the process. Alos dont forget that last month the turkish police killed 6 kurds and the day after a protestor in kurdistan. Things are getting worst down there
3) The turkish minoriy in greece was under a state of ignorance and under a racist right wing policy till 1992. Though they have many rights, many turks are stuck with their tradition which is weird for greek standards. They do not send their children to the uni nor they allow girls to work. They need to realize where they are, since they are not natives.
4)EU just realized, after the french referendum shock, that it shall listen to what its citzens say...and the eurobarometre's results paved the way
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Postby akiner » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:45 pm

2) The armenian genocide was something that would come up during the process. Alos dont forget that last month the turkish police killed 6 kurds and the day after a protestor in kurdistan. Things are getting worst down there


What kurds are u talking about could u supply any links for this news!? Are u still blind to make such a separation between kurdish terrorists and kurdish origined civilians?!
BTw do u have any idea how many security forces got killed last month ?!

EU is asking Turkey to transform into some kind of state, which would be easy for the European countries to divide and destroy it. This is the hidden agenda, which now I am realising. There are double standards posed on Turkey and they are asking things that Turkey will never agree. They have even asked to remove the portraits of Ataturk from the governmental offices. I wonder if they had asked the same from other European countries!!!

Turkey is willing to transform and it has been tranformed dramatically. I know you still thing nothing has happened but the fact is that Turkey is getting more and more democratic. For instance, the protests by PKK partisans faced no reaction from the police. Likewise, the fundementalist Hiz-but supporters were not arrested. The number of civilians had increased in the national security council and as you can see the army is silent (well you will now claiming that they are silent but in fact they are not). Even in Cyprus, although I agree Annan Plan was unfair for you guys, but at least it was a big step and believe me in Turkey they people were so angry at AKP, which they thought was selling out Cyprus to Greeks. You cannot how many fights I made with my Turkish friends claiming that this didn't mean "selling out of Cyprus" and I agreed that stationing 40000 Turkish soldiers on the island has not the only aim to protect the Turkish Cypriot community.

Even in the economic terms, many state own firms were privitised and as a result many people became unemployed. The aspect that Turkey is not willing to give away are as such:

1- Recognition of RoC and pulling the troops back from Cyprus. Asking for these means that you do not want an agreement but you want to benefit from the status quo. Why dont you ask yourself "why my government doesnt make a step for a solution". Why dont you propose things? Why do you expect every thing from us?? Papadopulos does not want to sit and talk with Talat. The only thing he is concerned is to use EU membership as a means to get compromises from Turkey... Why doesn't he just say "we want a true solution without expecting Turkey to do every thing". You will ......

2-
3-

4- ..... even if Turkey will meet the criteria. Turkey's membership will be voted in France and in Austria, and we all know the result... Can you guarantee that Piratis?


This is a great post garbitsch but dont expect to get a proper answer because they cant say " Yes, Eu is holding double standarts on Turkey and always will"
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Postby garbitsch » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:10 pm

Thanks for agreegin cmantas_liberal.

1) both sides shall bury the hatchet, i think that a movement from both sides, like the one in berlin in 1989 would be a good opportunity for both sides and force the leaders to find a solution without the greek/turkish/british pimpers

I agree with that one.

2) The armenian genocide was something that would come up during the process. Alos dont forget that last month the turkish police killed 6 kurds and the day after a protestor in kurdistan. Things are getting worst down there

Those kurds must have been the terrorists who died as a result of the clashes between the army and the PKK. There is nothing called Kurdistan!

3) The turkish minoriy in greece was under a state of ignorance and under a racist right wing policy till 1992. Though they have many rights, many turks are stuck with their tradition which is weird for greek standards. They do not send their children to the uni nor they allow girls to work. They need to realize where they are, since they are not natives.

They were and still are under a state of denial. As we all know people might have different traditions and we cannot force them to adobt us. As a liberal, you should know it best. The Kurds for instance have totally different life style than the Turks, say in Istanbul. They are still living in big families, in which the people marry their kin. Of course this type of life style is practiced by the Turks in the East as well. We should recognise the difference, we should not force them to change. However we can promote the change. This might be more helpful.

4)EU just realized, after the french referendum shock, that it shall listen to what its citzens say...and the eurobarometre's results paved the way
.

I am quite sure that the people were highly politicised by the parties who are against Turkey's membership. I bet not all these people are experts on Turkey.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:49 am

EU is asking Turkey to transform into some kind of state, which would be easy for the European countries to divide and destroy it.


And why do you think they want that?


This is the hidden agenda, which now I am realising.


Turkey applied for EU membership decades ago and they are still trying. If there was such hidden agenda that is obvious to you then the Turkish politicians must be really stupid.

Turkey is willing to transform and it has been tranformed dramatically.

Turkey is just making some moves on paper and they avoid some things in order to please Europe. If tomorrow their accession process is terminated then all those "changes" will be reverted within a day. That said, of course Turkey is trying to show some changes. They wouldn't reach this far if they didn't do anything right? However they have to realize that doing half things is not enough.

Recognition of RoC and pulling the troops back from Cyprus. Asking for these means that you do not want an agreement but you want to benefit from the status quo.

And how exactly do we benefit from the status quo when 1/3rd of our most productive land is occupied?

Why dont you ask yourself "why my government doesnt make a step for a solution". Why dont you propose things?

Are you willing to discuss anything that will make Cyprus a truly united democratic country without racist discriminations and without any violations of human rights?

Why doesn't he just say "we want a true solution without expecting Turkey to do every thing".

OK, let me call Papadopoulos and tell him to send our refugees to their homes tomorrow. Lets see if Turkey will allow us to take any initives.

If this is the policy, then please do not trick us by claiming that the Greek side is willing to compromise on a federal solution.

We never tried to trick you. Federal solution as it exist in all other federal countries (US, Russia etc) yes. "Federal" as per Annan plan were there is racial discrimination, and which in fact is a disguised partition, no.

I tell you another double standard

No need to tell us about double standards. We experience them first hand. If no double standards existed then the Annan plan would have been proposed for the solution of the Kurdish problem in Turkey.

The EU is not promissing Turkey a full membership, even if Turkey will meet the criteria. Turkey's membership will be voted in France and in Austria, and we all know the result... Can you guarantee that Piratis?

You know what the result would be today, based on what Turkey is today. Turkey has 15 years to change. Thats enough time to change the public opinion 100 times. However I ask you: Assume that Turkey didn't manage to enter the EU. How would improving her human rights record, improving her relations with her neighborers, giving more rights to the 20% Kurdish minority etc, harm the Turkish people or anybody else.
If Turkey makes these changes is for the best of all people anyways.
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Postby Nikiforos » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:47 am

[quote="garbitsch"]There is nothing called Kurdistan!

Not yet, but THERE WILL BE A NATION CALLED KURDISTAN. THE KURDS HAVE A MUCH STRONGER CASE FOR KURDISTAN THAN THE TCs HAVE FOR THE SO-CALLED TRNC. KURDISTAN WILL INEVITABLY INCLUDE SIGNIFICANT TERRITORY FROM WHAT IS NOW TURKEY. TIME AND HISTORY ARE ON THE SIDE OF THE KURDS. THE TURKS WILL LEARN WHAT MANY BEFORE THEM HAVE LEARNED--THOSE WHO LIVE BY THE SWORD DIE BY THE SWORD.
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Postby Nikiforos » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:09 am

garbitsch wrote:
I am quite sure that the people were highly politicised by the parties who are against Turkey's membership. I bet not all these people are experts on Turkey.


I agree that most European voters are not experts on Turkey AND I AM SURE THAT THE TURKS HOPE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. THE MORE THAT EUROPEANS LEARN ABOUT TURKEY, THE GREATER IS THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THEY WILL WANT TO KEEP (VOTE) IT OUT OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

The issue of Turkish accession to the EU is an excellent example of where THE POLITICIANS ARE WRONG AND THE PEOPLE ARE RIGHT.
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Postby cmantas_liberal » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:33 am

i was refering to the killing of a kurd protestor few weeks ago from the turkish policy, in case that you are not aware have a look in reuters or bbc's site.

Most of the muslim communities (i ve lived in wales and Italy working for EU) are isolated, though there are many excemptions, i believe that most of the muslim communities in europe are under denial. For me (I consider myself as pro-european and i try to differentiate myself from the mass of the neo-greek uneducated masses) it is weird to see a girl wearing headscarf and getting marry at the age of 15 or 18. I ve talked with many ppl from the bangladesi community in london and many said that on several communities young girls do not even learn english nor they are allowed to go out. The muslims that have done a progress withing the british society are the most secular. Does this mean something? I ve met many pakistanis who are drinking and they 've adopted the british way of living but the ones that stuck with sharia law and etc. seem to be doomed.

Recently i ve posted a thread concerning the saria law in greece. It would be a good start for Mr.Papandreou's government, when he is going to be elected, as liberal and american influenced to start by making illegal the use of sharia lawin thrace and to ban all the religious symbols and rituals from schools like in france.

A question that i ve posted many times is... why the western liberal world is always more advanced from the muslim world? and pls..dont tell me about the exploitation from the white men and etc....this happened 100 years ago like the arabs exploited and destroyed so many civilizations.

I know that the kurds are also some sort of barbarians, they do have honour killings and etc. but still they are also under denial from many countries.

Garboy, have u been in cyprus? i mean are u going often there? my ex gf was a turkish cypriot and i think that she has cut every link with cyprus nor she was aware of what was going on. She wasnt even talking any cypriot dialect.

have a nice weekend
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Postby akiner » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:39 pm

i was refering to the killing of a kurd protestor few weeks ago from the turkish policy, in case that you are not aware have a look in reuters or bbc's site.

Why dont u bring the link here instead farting and misleading ppl with a wrong statement?!
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:25 pm

cmantas_liberal wrote:3) The turkish minoriy in greece was under a state of ignorance and under a racist right wing policy till 1992.

Hm, as far as I know it was Greece that had a right wing racist right wing government that has expelled many turks from their native lands in Thrace, that same government also as a matter of a fact tried to annex Cyprus fortunately unsuccesfully.

Though they have many rights, many turks are stuck with their tradition which is weird for greek standards.

Many rights? State at least one right that turks in Greece have and kurds in Turkey do not.

Weird traditions? Have you watched the movie Fat Greek Wedding?

They need to realize where they are, since they are not natives.

They are in their ancestral land where they have lived for hundreds of years and lands that have been brutally annexed, invaded and occupied, or in your terminology "liberated", by greece.
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