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The Euro Zone Mess

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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:50 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
A side effect or a consequence of supporting big businesses (to keep us enslaved)? Which brings us back to my very first point ...


She said, typing on a computer containing components and software manufactured by some of the biggest corporations on the planet! :lol: :lol: :lol:


And you think that doesn't keep us enslaved? Further proof of the point under discussion.


Enslaved! You do make me laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Large corporations enable the lifestyle you enjoy - they don't enslave you!

Nobody is forcing you to use that computer - you can free yourself from enslavement by not doing so...

Large corporations don't make these things on a whim and force them on people - they spend billions on R & D because there is a demand for their products.

Who do you think makes the aircraft that fly you to your beloved Greece and Cyprus, and finds and refines the fuel they use? Who would make the aircraft without the corporations you loathe so much - Yiaya? :lol:

Nobody forces you to benefit from the capitalist society that we live in and provides the lifestyle we enjoy.

Yet you choose not to live in a mud hut, without heating or electricity and cook your food on a stove fuelled by horse dung... why is that?


We were trying to dispassionately debate the different lifestyles, without personalizing our responses since none of us really know how the other lives, other than the fact they use some form of computer to communicate. I would disagree with you that these things are not forced on us because none of us are islands and we need to participate at some level in society - the society is now organised by the internet. The problem is one of how much we "benefit" from this and this is where it varies from person to person. Most people do not have a problem with capitalism at some level - mine is on having it completely unregulated, as it has become.

But now you mention it - yes I do choose to live in a "mud" hut with no electricity when my duties to society are done. :)


No, you said : -

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sure, but most Greek business ventures never began with loans from banks but from families working together.

Businesses that are so big that they need loans and are in it purely for personal profits are not the sort which help their country.


But it is clear that without the evil 'big business' you wouldn't be able to participate in society or fulfil your duties to society... :roll:

Big businesses, (bankrolled by the big banks) provide the lifestyle you enjoy...

You can't enjoy the benefits of this modern lifestyle, including health care, aircraft, computers, the internet, etc. while at the same time somehow reigning in capitalism to turn the clock back so that we can 'participate at some level in society' without them...
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:56 am

cyprusgrump wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
And you think that doesn't keep us enslaved? Further proof of the point under discussion.


Enslaved! You do make me laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Large corporations enable the lifestyle you enjoy - they don't enslave you!

Nobody is forcing you to use that computer - you can free yourself from enslavement by not doing so...

Large corporations don't make these things on a whim and force them on people - they spend billions on R & D because there is a demand for their products.

Who do you think makes the aircraft that fly you to your beloved Greece and Cyprus, and finds and refines the fuel they use? Who would make the aircraft without the corporations you loathe so much - Yiaya? :lol:

Nobody forces you to benefit from the capitalist society that we live in and provides the lifestyle we enjoy.

Yet you choose not to live in a mud hut, without heating or electricity and cook your food on a stove fuelled by horse dung... why is that?


We were trying to dispassionately debate the different lifestyles, without personalizing our responses since none of us really know how the other lives, other than the fact they use some form of computer to communicate. I would disagree with you that these things are not forced on us because none of us are islands and we need to participate at some level in society - the society is now organised by the internet. The problem is one of how much we "benefit" from this and this is where it varies from person to person. Most people do not have a problem with capitalism at some level - mine is on having it completely unregulated, as it has become.

But now you mention it - yes I do choose to live in a "mud" hut with no electricity when my duties to society are done. :)


No, you said : -

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sure, but most Greek business ventures never began with loans from banks but from families working together.

Businesses that are so big that they need loans and are in it purely for personal profits are not the sort which help their country.


But it is clear that without the evil 'big business' you wouldn't be able to participate in society or fulfil your duties to society... :roll:

Big businesses, (bankrolled by the big banks) provide the lifestyle you enjoy...

You can't enjoy the benefits of this modern lifestyle, including health care, aircraft, computers, the internet, etc. while at the same time somehow reigning in capitalism to turn the clock back so that we can 'participate at some level in society' without them...


And you miss the point. Whereas you might be happier and more content whilst enjoying the "benefits" of big business, I can see the alternative which still exists in some (fewer and fewer) parts of Greece. This is families working together, without 'loans' from exploitative outsiders. These communities are the last remnants of a healthier society which unregulated capitalist big banks and businesses want to swallow up and force (enslave) into the machinations that create their profits.
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:17 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
And you think that doesn't keep us enslaved? Further proof of the point under discussion.


Enslaved! You do make me laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Large corporations enable the lifestyle you enjoy - they don't enslave you!

Nobody is forcing you to use that computer - you can free yourself from enslavement by not doing so...

Large corporations don't make these things on a whim and force them on people - they spend billions on R & D because there is a demand for their products.

Who do you think makes the aircraft that fly you to your beloved Greece and Cyprus, and finds and refines the fuel they use? Who would make the aircraft without the corporations you loathe so much - Yiaya? :lol:

Nobody forces you to benefit from the capitalist society that we live in and provides the lifestyle we enjoy.

Yet you choose not to live in a mud hut, without heating or electricity and cook your food on a stove fuelled by horse dung... why is that?


We were trying to dispassionately debate the different lifestyles, without personalizing our responses since none of us really know how the other lives, other than the fact they use some form of computer to communicate. I would disagree with you that these things are not forced on us because none of us are islands and we need to participate at some level in society - the society is now organised by the internet. The problem is one of how much we "benefit" from this and this is where it varies from person to person. Most people do not have a problem with capitalism at some level - mine is on having it completely unregulated, as it has become.

But now you mention it - yes I do choose to live in a "mud" hut with no electricity when my duties to society are done. :)


No, you said : -

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sure, but most Greek business ventures never began with loans from banks but from families working together.

Businesses that are so big that they need loans and are in it purely for personal profits are not the sort which help their country.


But it is clear that without the evil 'big business' you wouldn't be able to participate in society or fulfil your duties to society... :roll:

Big businesses, (bankrolled by the big banks) provide the lifestyle you enjoy...

You can't enjoy the benefits of this modern lifestyle, including health care, aircraft, computers, the internet, etc. while at the same time somehow reigning in capitalism to turn the clock back so that we can 'participate at some level in society' without them...


And you miss the point. Whereas you might be happier and more content whilst enjoying the "benefits" of big business, I can see the alternative which still exists in some (fewer and fewer) parts of Greece. This is families working together, without 'loans' from exploitative outsiders. These communities are the last remnants of a healthier society which unregulated capitalist big banks and businesses want to swallow up and force (enslave) into the machinations that create their profits.


But you can't be selective...

These small communities may not have the internet or mobile phones (do they?), or computers on every desk...

But they still benefit from the operations of the evil 'big businesses' that you seem to despise...

They have medicines and health care, fabrics, materials and technologies that would not be available to them otherwise... Were they really 'healthier societies' with the diseases and infections that have now been controlled for them by 'big business'...? What is the average lifespan now compared to 100 years ago...?

Nobody wants to force or enslave them into the clutches of big business or the banks...

As you say, fewer and few of these communities exist - the reason being that they see the benefits of an easier and more comfortable lifestyle. Why spend weeks making a pair of trousers or a bucket to carry water when you can buy the same thing for a few €uros...?
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby yialousa1971 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:01 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Grizos Katos wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Grizos Katos wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sure, but most Greek business ventures never began with loans from banks but from families working together.

Businesses that are so big that they need loans and are in it purely for personal profits are not the sort which help their country.


Are you serious?

That is incorrect since businesses which expand with private investor finds to raise capital and from borrowings create many jobs and when this sector is not doing well, it usually means very high unemployment such as what we are seeing in Cyprus today.


Revolution comes from an unhappy demos.


Another side effect of massive unemployment.


A side effect or a consequence of supporting big businesses (to keep us enslaved)? Which brings us back to my very first point ...


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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:11 pm

A discusion peice on Greece, suggesting that what is being done ti Greece is act of Cruelty on the part of those behind the Europroject
[url]who-will-stop-the-sado-monetarists-as-jobless-youth-hits-58pc-in-greece[/url]

Greek unemployment rose to 25.4pc in August. Youth unemployment rose to 58pc.

Under the official forecast, the economy will contract by a further 4.5pc next year, so it fair to assume that lots more people are going to lose their jobs. It is certainly not going to improve in any meaningful way for years to come.

This is what happens when you lock into the wrong currency and block the escape routes – or join a "burning building with no exits" in the words of William Hague.


The Greek people have to decide what is best for them, but the current siuation is tragic in particulr for the unemployed youth, and GIG, read this carefully, i have never wished for anything but economic well being for Greece or any
other country,
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:05 pm

more news which could be tragic for the ordinary Greek citizen dependent on Government money, which is fast running out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/09/eurozone-crisis-greece-bailout-aid-delay

Here is hoping they get a good crop of olives.
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby cyprusgrump » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:15 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:more news which could be tragic for the ordinary Greek citizen dependent on Government money, which is fast running out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/09/eurozone-crisis-greece-bailout-aid-delay

Here is hoping they get a good crop of olives.


What a terrible mess...

This bit caught my eye: -

As I mentioned at 8.29am, the IMF and the Europeans are at odds over how to relieve the pressure on Greece and fill a funding gap of up to €30bn arising from extending the terms of the bailout package by two years to 2016.


Can there be anybody on the planet that thinks this could in any way be over by 2016 and it could then be business as normal...?
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby kimon07 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:34 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:more news which could be tragic for the ordinary Greek citizen dependent on Government money, which is fast running out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/09/eurozone-crisis-greece-bailout-aid-delay

Here is hoping they get a good crop of olives.


What a terrible mess...

This bit caught my eye: -

As I mentioned at 8.29am, the IMF and the Europeans are at odds over how to relieve the pressure on Greece and fill a funding gap of up to €30bn arising from extending the terms of the bailout package by two years to 2016.


Can there be anybody on the planet that thinks this could in any way be over by 2016 and it could then be business as normal...?


NO!
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:43 pm

kimon07 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:more news which could be tragic for the ordinary Greek citizen dependent on Government money, which is fast running out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/09/eurozone-crisis-greece-bailout-aid-delay

Here is hoping they get a good crop of olives.


What a terrible mess...

This bit caught my eye: -

As I mentioned at 8.29am, the IMF and the Europeans are at odds over how to relieve the pressure on Greece and fill a funding gap of up to €30bn arising from extending the terms of the bailout package by two years to 2016.


Can there be anybody on the planet that thinks this could in any way be over by 2016 and it could then be business as normal...?


NO!



Depends how business as normal is defined....but I agree that as matters stand the Eurozone debt crises will not have gone away by 2016, and sadly Greece is still likely to be in the mire, unless a radical solution can be found.

A point was raised in another topic about Greek Resilience - leaving aside the Hyperbole in the message, Greek Society is being badly affected and Athens, in particular, with its concentration of government dependent people, that is to say civil servants and those who provide goods and services to the government and civil servants, is probbaly in increasing risk of civic disintegration, particularly if there is no sign of respite. I do not think Greece has bottomed out and it could get a lot uglier.

There is currently not so much talk about the Grexit s there was, and the Econmist even suggestet a few weeks back that was not on the cards, but others are now saying that a disorderly default is still possible and with it likely exit from the Eurozone. This is however a flexible situiation possibly changing by the hour as political decisions are taken.

I dont take any pleasure at all in the propsect of a Greek default, or in any aspect of the financial crises in Greece, or indeed elswhere in Europe.

In that respect we must also remember that Greece is not the only country in the Eurozone with economic/financial problems - for their own reasons Italy and Spain also have problems, as well as Cyprus. Here it has only just started but German efforts to increase /equalise the corporate tax rate will only destroy many (but not all ) of the benefits that bring companies to Cyprus. The One size fits all Euro model of which the Eurozone is but a part is definitely not working for many nations.

The other European wide factor must be assessed is the resliance of voters in other EU / Eurozone nations to seeing vast sums of money being thrown in to what might be seen as bottomless pits, of which the EU machinery itself is but one (the financial audit of the budget is not clean) and the nations asking for bail-outs are others.

Let us see what the next few days brings.
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Re: The Euro Zone Mess

Postby kimon07 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:03 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:[Let us see what the next few days brings.


CHAOS! Mark my words.

The EU demonstrated an unbelievably and unprecedented fraudulent attitude towards Greece and humiliated its three party government today. For a month or so they were promising that as soon as the parliament would approve the new austerity measures which were agreed with the TROIKA the bailout installment of the 31 bil. would be released by the 11th of November. Today they said, sorry, we didn't mean it. Let's wait till February 2013. The government had pleaded for the new measures to be approved assuring that that would be the beginning of the come back. Instead, now they have to face what Tsipras was saying all along i.e., that it was all a lie. Result! Many MPs of the three coalition party government are abandoning their parties, let alone their supporters. For some reason which I don't understand, Germany and her friends are set to destroy the three ruling parties, bring Tsipras to power and Golden Dawn to the second place in votes. Maybe they are thus trying to have a good excuse for the uncontrolled developments which are about to follow. But what the heck. The phoenix has to be burned to ashes in order to be reborn. The thing is, this fire will not burn only the phoenix.
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