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Bloody Imperialists

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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby kimon07 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:40 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:For along time I have been well are of the nature of the British Empire as an instrument of political and economic power, principally designed to obtain cheap sources of raw materials for British factories and to make the British at home rich,(the factory owners at least) all at the expense of the local populace, who if they had work either grew crops like cotton, etc, for the Lancashire Mills or worked in mines for a mere pittance.

However I must make the point that a lot of your claims by which you wish to see Cyprus subjugated to Athens are based upon alleged events some 3000 years ago and if it is permisable for you to use and interpret those events in awauy favourable to you , so others can express their own views on historical events.

As for the importation of Culture I continue to wonder at just how much learning that existed in Persia back to a time when Greeks (but not Cypriots) were probably mostly illiterate went to Greece along with the Phonecial Language in the 8th century or so BCE (and every written script in use by Greeks was for the most borrewed and adopted) so it would not surprise me if that happened to other ideas too. The problem is that with the sometimes forced hellenisation of much of Persia, where the area was subject to an influx of settlers, a bit like the occupied zone of Cyprus (but that is OK by you, they were Greek and they acn do no wrongm.....in your world view,) and with a devloping elitstist cultural ascendancy, which was not aways welcomed (eg the revolt of the Macabees) the true extent of knowldge which is now ascribed to Greece has been lost. (to the victor the spoils of propoganda, which I think you have swallowed Hook line and Sinker)

We know for example that a Democracy of sorts existed in parts of India and and some Syrian city states long before it emerged in Greece. Maths, Astonomy, they were known all in Persia, Egypt and India before Greece. There are even indications that some of the fine examples of ancient Athenian Architecture may have Persian antecedents and influences, and even the Homeric epic' poems are thought by some to be influenced by the older epic of Gilgamesh, yet you are blinkered to these possibilities.


Possibilities...probabilities......the unsubstantiated vague theories of some, the wishful thinking of some others....
All that to contradict history!!

As for the revolt of the Maccabees. Maybe the reasons were similar to those that made the Christians turn against Hellenism????
You see, Hellenism was the anthropocentric culture of research and reason. Judaism and Christianity dogmatic theocracies. How else could they resist Hellenism than with violence and destruction?
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:58 pm

[quote="kimon07]

Possibilities...probabilities......the unsubstantiated vague theories of some, the wishful thinking of some others....
All that to contradict history!![/quote]

history is often re-written by the victors.
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby kimon07 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:08 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:[quote="kimon07]

Possibilities...probabilities......the unsubstantiated vague theories of some, the wishful thinking of some others....
All that to contradict history!![/quote]

history is often re-written by the victors.[/quote]


The Greek history (i.e., the achievements of Hellenism) as we know it today, was unearthed, revealed, studied, cross checked from several sources and was passed to the world by generations of comparatively modern time historians, archaeologists, scientists, researchers etc, the vast majority of whom were non Greeks. And some of the most prominent between them were British, as you very well know. And not all of them were of European descent. Many Persian and Arab Muslim scholars between them. Yes, historical events are in many occasions twisted by the victors and the powerful. But the forging is sooner or later revealed and exposed because the traces of actual facts ands events can never be eliminated. Take for instance the big lie that the Greeks did not have writing till 800 BC. And then what comes to surface? The Minoan civilization and linear A and B. And there goes the lie.

Look, I know its a torture for those who are not Greek to come across Hellenism with every step they make and every breath they take. From the first to the last day of their lives. To be using continuously Greek words and Greek terms in order to express even trivial every-day meanings such as "telephone" and "disco-theque". Not to mention most scientific terms. Just take a look in the "Game" thread". But what can we do? There we are. You better accept it and strop tormenting yourself. You can not change it.

P.S. There are no records, ancient or contemporary, nor any proof, that the Greeks tried to conceal or to destroy cultural achievements of others or claim them as their own. On the contrary, many ancient Greek historians and travellers have written extensive reports about the civilisations which existed in other parts of the world during their times, such as several Asian civilisations and the Egyptian civilisation. Being an English man, I am sure you have heatrd of Pytheas. And not only that. Let me remind you of the effort of the Greeks to concentrate and preserve for the future generations the wisdom and knowledge of the then known world, by establishing the library of Alexandria which served as the international data base of knowledge which they were collecting from all over the world.
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:41 pm

yes I have read about Pytoheus, a Marseille based Greek and early tourist, who followed a 1000 year old trade route, visited Britain and Ireland, and saw either Stonehenge or one of the major Irish henges, either likely built by some of my likely Ancestors (and I have some Irish Antecedants) Astronomical clocks that were then over 1000 years old and which with the millions of manhours involved in their construction demostrate the Brtish and Irish had a well organised society that existed before the Mycenaeans.
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby kimon07 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:54 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:yes I have read about Pytheus, a Marseille based Greek and early tourist, who followed a 1000 year old trade route, visited Britain and Ireland, and saw either Stonehenge or one of the major Irish henges, either likely built by some of my likely Ancestors (and I have some Irish Antecedents) Astronomical clocks that were then over 1000 years old and which with the millions of manhours involved in their construction demonstrate the British and Irish had a well organised society that existed before the Mycenaeans.


Very interesting indeed. Will you refer me to links or shall I have to look for them?
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby kimon07 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:45 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:yes I have read about Pytoheus, a Marseille based Greek and early tourist, who followed a 1000 year old trade route.....,


Is that so? Well, let's see!

Walker, 1 Apr. 2002 - 192 pages.
Canliffe.jpg


Around 330 B.C., a remarkable man named Pytheas set out from the Greek colony of Massalia (now Marseille) to explore the fabled, terrifying lands of northern Europe—a mysterious, largely conjectural zone that, according to Greek science, was too cold to sustain human life and yet was somehow, they knew, the source of precious commodities such as tin, amber, and gold.

Whether Pytheas headed an expedition or traveled alone, he was the first literate man to visit the British Isles and the coasts of France and Denmark, and there is convincing evidence that he traveled on to Iceland and the edge of the ice-pack—an astonishing voyage at the time. Pytheas’s own account of the journey, titled On the Ocean and published in about 320 B.C., has not survived, though it echoes in the works of ancient historians like Herodotus and Strabo. Their allusions to his voyage represent the beginnings of European history and underscore how much of a pioneer Pytheas was, for Britain remained without further explorers until Julius Caesar and his legions landed there almost 300 years later.
http://books.google.gr/books/about/The_ ... edir_esc=y

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas#Na ... he_British

What a turist!
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby kimon07 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:55 pm

kimon07 wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:yes I have read about Pytheus, a Marseille based Greek and early tourist, who followed a 1000 year old trade route, visited Britain and Ireland, and saw either Stonehenge or one of the major Irish henges, either likely built by some of my likely Ancestors (and I have some Irish Antecedents) Astronomical clocks that were then over 1000 years old and which with the millions of manhours involved in their construction demonstrate the British and Irish had a well organised society that existed before the Mycenaeans.


Very interesting indeed. Will you refer me to links or shall I have to look for them?


Don’t bother. I found the various theories, allegations, claims and myths related to the Stonehenge. Very interesting. Maybe one day they may come up with some proof, some evidences for one or more of them?

Stonehenge was produced by a culture that left no written records. Many aspects of Stonehenge remain subject to debate. This multiplicity of theories, some of them very colorful, are often called the "mystery of Stonehenge".[citation needed] A number of myths surround the stones.[17]
More recently two major new theories have been proposed. Professor Geoffrey Wainwright OBE, FSA, president of the Society of Antiquaries of London, and Professor Timothy Darvill, OBE of Bournemouth University have suggested that Stonehenge was a place of healing – the primeval equivalent of Lourdes.[18] They argue that this accounts for the high number of burials in the area and for the evidence of trauma deformity in some of the graves.


And

The prehistoric monument of Stonehenge has long been studied for its possible connections with ancient astronomy. Archaeoastronomers have claimed that Stonehenge represents an "ancient observatory," although the extent of its use for that purpose is in dispute. Many also believe that the site may have had astrological/spiritual significance attached to it as well.


Personally am inclined to believe one of the following two below, prefferably the one with the Irish tuch to it:

The Devil bought the stones from a woman in Ireland, wrapped them up, and brought them to Salisbury plain. One of the stones fell into the Avon, the rest were carried to the plain. The Devil then cried out, "No-one will ever find out how these stones came here!" A friar replied, "That’s what you think!," whereupon the Devil threw one of the stones at him and struck him on the heel. The stone stuck in the ground and is still there.

In the 12th century, Geoffrey of Monmouth included a fanciful story in his work Historia Regum Britanniae that attributed the monument's construction to Merlin.[23] Geoffrey's story spread widely, appearing in more and less elaborate form in adaptations of his work such as Wace's Norman French Roman de Brut, Layamon's Middle English Brut, and the Welsh Brut y Brenhinedd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoast ... Stonehenge
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:41 pm

Kimon - great man! :D
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby yialousa1971 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:27 am

kimon07 wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:yes I have read about Pytoheus, a Marseille based Greek and early tourist, who followed a 1000 year old trade route.....,


Is that so? Well, let's see!

Walker, 1 Apr. 2002 - 192 pages.
Canliffe.jpg


Around 330 B.C., a remarkable man named Pytheas set out from the Greek colony of Massalia (now Marseille) to explore the fabled, terrifying lands of northern Europe—a mysterious, largely conjectural zone that, according to Greek science, was too cold to sustain human life and yet was somehow, they knew, the source of precious commodities such as tin, amber, and gold.

Whether Pytheas headed an expedition or traveled alone, he was the first literate man to visit the British Isles and the coasts of France and Denmark, and there is convincing evidence that he traveled on to Iceland and the edge of the ice-pack—an astonishing voyage at the time. Pytheas’s own account of the journey, titled On the Ocean and published in about 320 B.C., has not survived, though it echoes in the works of ancient historians like Herodotus and Strabo. Their allusions to his voyage represent the beginnings of European history and underscore how much of a pioneer Pytheas was, for Britain remained without further explorers until Julius Caesar and his legions landed there almost 300 years later.
http://books.google.gr/books/about/The_ ... edir_esc=y

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas#Na ... he_British

What a turist!


In her work entitled The Wine Dark Sea, Mertz argued that Odysseus sailed through the Straits of Gibraltar and into the North Atlantic. Moreover, Mertz believed that Odysseus faced Scylla and Charybdis when he arrived at the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia.[3] Mertz also proposed that the Argonauts travelled across the Atlantic Ocean, down the east coast of South America, past the mouth of the Amazon and Rio de Janeiro to the Rio Plata of Argentina. From Rio Plata, Jason went to the altiplano of Bolivia and to Tihuanaco where the Golden Fleece was located
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Re: Bloody Imperialists

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:44 am

Influences on the Odyssey
Scholars have seen strong influences from Near Eastern mythology and literature in the Odyssey. Martin West has noted substantial parallels between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Odyssey.[8] Both Odysseus and Gilgamesh are known for traveling to the ends of the earth, and on their journeys go to the land of the dead. On his voyage to the underworld, Odysseus follows instructions given to him by Circe, a goddess who is the daughter of the sun-god Helios. Her island, Aeaea, is located at the edges of the world, and seems to have close associations with the sun. Like Odysseus, Gilgamesh gets directions on how to reach the land of the dead from a divine helper: in this case, the goddess Siduri, who, like Circe, dwells by the sea at the ends of the earth. Her home is also associated with the sun: Gilgamesh reaches Siduri's house by passing through a tunnel underneath Mt. Mashu, the high mountain from which the sun comes into the sky. West argues that the similarity of Odysseus' and Gilgamesh's journeys to the edges of the earth are the result of the influence of the Gilgamesh epic upon the Odyssey.

The Cyclops' origins have also been surmised to be the results of Ancient Greeks finding an elephant skull, by paleontologist Othenio Abel in 1914. The enormous nasal passage in the middle of the forehead could have looked like the eye socket of a giant, to those who had never seen a living elephant.[9]

Text historyThe Athenian tyrant Peisistratos, who ruled between 546 and 527 BC, is believed to have established a Commission of Editors of Homer to edit the text of the poems and remove any errors and interpolations, thus establishing a canonical text.[10]


and

Events in the main sequence of the Odyssey (excluding the narrative of Odysseus's adventures) take place in the Peloponnese and in what are now called the Ionian Islands (Ithaca and its neighbours). Incidental mentions of Troy and its house Phoenicia, Egypt and Crete hint at geographical knowledge equal to, or perhaps slightly more extensive than that of the Iliad.[1] However, scholars both ancient and modern are divided as to whether or not any of the places visited by Odysseus (after Ismaros and before his return to Ithaca) were real.

The geographer Strabo came down squarely on the skeptical side: he reported what the great geographer Eratosthenes had said in the late third century BCE: "You will find the scene of Odysseus's wanderings when you find the cobbler who sewed up the bag of winds."[2] Undaunted, many have made the attempt.



Mertz has long been subject to objective criticism: a number of researchs both Ancient and Modern tend to suggest Oddyseus might have got to Sicily and southern italy,not mucch further, all of which were places to which Cypriot wares were being transported at the time, while the Argosy can clearly be placed in the Black Sea, and is well known the earliest story which can clearly be correlated to an Atlantic voyage is that of the Irish Monk, St Brendan, who plainly went via the Faroe islands, Iceland, (where he saw a Volcano erupting) and Greenland, as the vikings later did. .
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