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Hellenic inventions and discoveries

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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:49 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:If they are 90% similar then they are dialects derived/co-evolved from the same language.

All the Greek dialects evolved from the oldest Indo-European surviving language, termed "Hellenic".

(Or, art thou going to tell us Shakespeare penned in German, forsooth?)


No that is not correct as they did not Co-evolve and no Shakespeare did not write in German.

With Shakespeare one can read the words of the bard and apply the modern sounds of the English language and one gets something comprehensible: that does not happen with Linear A and B.

A better parallel would be the modification of the Greek Alphabet to the Russian Cyrillic Script or the difference between French and English, which share an alphabet, or EG the related Greek and Hebrew Alphabets.

Now as a syllabic script Linear A represented groups of sound syllables in Minoan: Linear B represents sounds in the Greek of the time. Now Greek dialects may well all descend from one branch of the IE language tree but the Eteo-Cretan Minoan language was from another branch of the IE language family and was not a Greek Dialect.
This is illustrated by the fact we know from the work of Ventris etc what the sounds represent in Linear B and a student of Linear B can read the words of Linear B and you get Greek but taking the same symbols when one takes the sounds represented by liner B symbols and applies them to the similar looking linear A symbols we know what the words sound like but they do not resemble spoken Greek. As far as I know it is not possible to translate Linear A s even by assigning new sounds to the elements of the script, in a fashion that would allow a translation into Greek.

The logical explanation they are different languages (why otherwise would symbols for sounds in the same language otherwise be used in such a different way ?):

In that respect Linear B only emerged after the takeover of Crete by the Mycenaeans: before then the Mycenaeans had no (known) written language. With the collapse of the Minoan palace society (and where as a script Linear A reflected the spoken language of the Minoan Rulers and was used by palace Scribes to keep transactional records) Linear A fell into disuse and was supplanted by Linear B, which used the same symbols, but which reflected the spoken language of the new Mycenaean rulers, where the sounds were used in different ways as spoken language was different. The 10% difference in symbols is likely attributable to the different sounds that may exist in one spoken language but not the other.
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:48 pm

So you're saying Linear A and linear B did not co-evolve, nor are they part of the same language, because your source says they are (only) 90% similar. Yet Shakespeare's English which is at best (only) 75% similar to modern English is in fact English and not some other language.

Methinks thou knowest naught but outvenoming.
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:02 pm

no I am not saying it: it is experts in the field who are saying it. and I think you are being deliberately stupid, trying to argue against the evidence, that or have you joined the Cretin Society, as opposed to the Cretan Society.
Read the article I posted the link too . The speaker at the Cretan Society made the point the languages are different,,
:
The shapes of the script represent a spoken Syllables and 90% of the shapes correspond between the written scripts but when it come to the meaning of the combination of sounds (of which the script is a representation) that is different. Linear B is derived from Linear A but adapted to Greek.and where if Linear A represented a Greek language there would have been no need to have linear B.

indeed here is something writtten in ( mostly ) English letters but what does it mean?
Vikižodynas - laisvasis žiniatinklio žodynas lietuvių kalba, Vikimedijos fondo projektas, kuriuo siekiama sukurti laisvai prieinamą, daugiakalbį žodyną, jame pateikti ne tik atskiras sąvokas, bet ir jų apibrėžimus, etimologiją, taip pat tokius dalykus kaip tarimas, sinonimai, antonimai, frazeologizmai, vietovardžiai, vardažodžiai, sąvokos (žodžių junginiai), santrumpos, taip pat lietuviškų žodžių atitikmenis užsienio kalbose.
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:59 pm

It's not what the experts are saying that's problematic It's your extrapolations which are gobbledygook!
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:50 pm

rubbish and you know it: I have otherwise made no extrapolations of mine own let alone any which are gobbledygook. If anyone is guilty of gobbledygook it is you by claiming the Ancient Minoans spoke Greek, when the article makes it clear that while the Ancient Minoan tongue belongs to the IE family it is a separate branch to Greek.
Get it through your thick head -THE ANCIENT MINOANS (PRE ABOUT 1400 BC) DID NOT SPEAK GREEK OR A DIALECT THEREOF OF GREEK OR EVEN A PROTO-GREEK
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby Get Real! » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:59 pm

yialousa1971 wrote:Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Like anyone gives a shit! :roll: :lol:


Ancient Discoveries - The Antikythera Machine

That's a hoax you twit! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:46 am

Both Linear A and Linear B are forms of proto-Greek.
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:13 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Both Linear A and Linear B are forms of proto-Greek.


No: Like a broken record (ie you are cracked|) you just keep repeating the same thing but add nothing. I have pointed you at a talk by learned professor that clearly sets out that the Minoans did not speak Greek (or even a proto Greek) but as usual you are unable to produce anything which counters that argument.

The fact is that on Crete upto about 1400BC or so there was a Non-Hellenic civilisation:. Linear A is the syllabic representation of the spoken non Greek Minoan Language of that civilisation in use in (principally) Crete from about 2000BC until about 1400 BC or so. Indeed the use of linear A is unique to the Minoan areas.ie Crete and close by Islands Linear B is a syllabic representation of the spoken Mycenaean Greek which was in use from about 1400 BC to about 1100BC - from about the time when the Mycenaeans came into contact with and conquered the (non Greek Speaking ) Minoans. It can be found in a number of places including Mycenae, The Myceneaens took Linear A and adapted it to their spoken tongue to create Linear B, just as later on (in about 800 BCE or so) the Greeks took the Phoenician Alphabet and adapted to their language.,having lost Linear B.
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:15 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Both Linear A and Linear B are forms of proto-Greek.

Greek is everything and anything you can imagine… :lol:
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Re: Hellenic inventions and discoveries

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:32 am

Linear A is very similar to Linear B. Basically it's just another font. The same holds for the "Cretan hieroglyphs" (which are simply less linear) and the script of the Phaistos Disk (which can afford to consist of meticulous "drawings" because it is stamped rather than handwritten). The language is a divergent variant of Greek, comparable to the situation of Swiss "German".

Steven Roger Fischer: Glyph-Breaker, Copernicus/Springer 1997

"Both of these scripts yield clues of great cultural importance. Fischer's previous decipherment, of a Cretan artifact called the Phaistos Disk, provided the key to the ancient Minoan language and showed it to be closely related to Mycenaean Greek. Contrary to prevailing archaeological opinion, the Minoans were Greeks, and Crete's Phaistos Disk now comprises Europe's oldest documented literature.
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