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Wind farms vs wildlife

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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby georgios100 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:28 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:Subsidizing is a necessary evil. A good example is the carbon subsidy at the Dominican Republic vs Haiti. These two countries share the same island.
The Dominicans subsidized the price of home propane tanks by 50% but the Haitians did not. After many years, the Haiti landscape is bare ground, no trees to talk about
resulting in soil erosion, floods, loss of top soil for crops etc. In contrast, the Dom. Rep. is well treed with lots of fertile ground.

The Haitians could not afford high propane cost so they cut all the trees and used the wood for cooking, boiling hot water etc.


That is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted and a very poor argument for subsidies! :shock:

The U.N. ranks the Dominican Republic 90th out of 182 countries on its human-development index, which combines a variety of welfare measurements; Haiti comes in at 149th. In the Dominican Republic, average life expectancy is nearly 74 years. In Haiti, it's 61. You're substantially more likely to be able to read and write if you live in the eastern two-thirds of Hispaniola, and less likely to live on less than $1.25 a day.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z2HMJiherT


The two countries are completely different.

Honestly, buddy, if that is your argument for subsidies (and therefore renewable energy) I'd suggest you think again... :roll:

[EDIT] By the way, if the subsidy for the propane came from the carbon credit scheme..? It means that somebody in the West paid extra tax on their use of fossil fuels so that somebody in The Dominican Republic could use fossil fuels... No saving of CO2 or advantage to the environment - the only people that benefited were the middle men that make billions out of the process...

At least the trees the Haitians burnt were renewable! :lol:


Grump, you are a very stubborn guy... never listen to reason...
The example I posted above is real! A few years back, the Dom Rep. government cut this subsidy to comply with IMF demands.
Immediately, the Dominican people start cutting trees by the thousands... I was there and saw it with my own eyes! Six months later, the subsidy was re-introduced.
Look what is happening to Greece. Since the heating oil price is increased, people start cutting trees to heat themselves, polluting the air as well.
The Greeks are "richer" than the Haitians... right?
Stop embarrasing yourself and agree with reason, atleast sometimes, if you want to be taken seriously by fellow posters.
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:44 pm

georgios100 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:Subsidizing is a necessary evil. A good example is the carbon subsidy at the Dominican Republic vs Haiti. These two countries share the same island.
The Dominicans subsidized the price of home propane tanks by 50% but the Haitians did not. After many years, the Haiti landscape is bare ground, no trees to talk about
resulting in soil erosion, floods, loss of top soil for crops etc. In contrast, the Dom. Rep. is well treed with lots of fertile ground.

The Haitians could not afford high propane cost so they cut all the trees and used the wood for cooking, boiling hot water etc.


That is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted and a very poor argument for subsidies! :shock:

The U.N. ranks the Dominican Republic 90th out of 182 countries on its human-development index, which combines a variety of welfare measurements; Haiti comes in at 149th. In the Dominican Republic, average life expectancy is nearly 74 years. In Haiti, it's 61. You're substantially more likely to be able to read and write if you live in the eastern two-thirds of Hispaniola, and less likely to live on less than $1.25 a day.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z2HMJiherT


The two countries are completely different.

Honestly, buddy, if that is your argument for subsidies (and therefore renewable energy) I'd suggest you think again... :roll:

[EDIT] By the way, if the subsidy for the propane came from the carbon credit scheme..? It means that somebody in the West paid extra tax on their use of fossil fuels so that somebody in The Dominican Republic could use fossil fuels... No saving of CO2 or advantage to the environment - the only people that benefited were the middle men that make billions out of the process...

At least the trees the Haitians burnt were renewable! :lol:


Grump, you are a very stubborn guy... never listen to reason...
The example I posted above is real! A few years back, the Dom Rep. government cut this subsidy to comply with IMF demands.
Immediately, the Dominican people start cutting trees by the thousands... I was there and saw it with my own eyes! Six months later, the subsidy was re-introduced.
Look what is happening to Greece. Since the heating oil price is increased, people start cutting trees to heat themselves, polluting the air as well.
The Greeks are "richer" than the Haitians... right?
Stop embarrasing yourself and agree with reason, atleast sometimes, if you want to be taken seriously by fellow posters.


There is no reason in your argument....

Sadly, there is no magic money tree...

Therefore, every $1 that is used to subsidise propane is a $1 taken from somebody else... a $1 that could have been invested in new energy production in some way shape or form...

Also, when you start throwing money around in subsidies it is inevitable that people will take advantage of it - it didn't take me long to find this: -

Time to eliminate the propane gas subsidy?

The president of the Asociación Nacional de Distribuidores de Gas Licuado de Petróleo (Asonadigas) recommended that the government eliminate the subsidy on propane gas. He denounced that local businessmen are selling the subsidized fuel to Haitian businessmen for subsequent sale at much higher prices in neighboring Haiti. Some 150 million gallons of propane gas a year are consumed in the Dominican Republic, most heavily subsidized.


Every single time you introduce subsidies or charges the law of unintended circumstances comes into play and you find yourself worse off than you were before...

You're the expert:; How much has been spent subsidising propane? What could have been done with this money to provide a better energy infrastructure had there not been this subsidy?
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby georgios100 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:32 am

cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:Subsidizing is a necessary evil. A good example is the carbon subsidy at the Dominican Republic vs Haiti. These two countries share the same island.
The Dominicans subsidized the price of home propane tanks by 50% but the Haitians did not. After many years, the Haiti landscape is bare ground, no trees to talk about
resulting in soil erosion, floods, loss of top soil for crops etc. In contrast, the Dom. Rep. is well treed with lots of fertile ground.

The Haitians could not afford high propane cost so they cut all the trees and used the wood for cooking, boiling hot water etc.


That is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted and a very poor argument for subsidies! :shock:

The U.N. ranks the Dominican Republic 90th out of 182 countries on its human-development index, which combines a variety of welfare measurements; Haiti comes in at 149th. In the Dominican Republic, average life expectancy is nearly 74 years. In Haiti, it's 61. You're substantially more likely to be able to read and write if you live in the eastern two-thirds of Hispaniola, and less likely to live on less than $1.25 a day.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z2HMJiherT


The two countries are completely different.

Honestly, buddy, if that is your argument for subsidies (and therefore renewable energy) I'd suggest you think again... :roll:

[EDIT] By the way, if the subsidy for the propane came from the carbon credit scheme..? It means that somebody in the West paid extra tax on their use of fossil fuels so that somebody in The Dominican Republic could use fossil fuels... No saving of CO2 or advantage to the environment - the only people that benefited were the middle men that make billions out of the process...

At least the trees the Haitians burnt were renewable! :lol:


Grump, you are a very stubborn guy... never listen to reason...
The example I posted above is real! A few years back, the Dom Rep. government cut this subsidy to comply with IMF demands.
Immediately, the Dominican people start cutting trees by the thousands... I was there and saw it with my own eyes! Six months later, the subsidy was re-introduced.
Look what is happening to Greece. Since the heating oil price is increased, people start cutting trees to heat themselves, polluting the air as well.
The Greeks are "richer" than the Haitians... right?
Stop embarrasing yourself and agree with reason, atleast sometimes, if you want to be taken seriously by fellow posters.


There is no reason in your argument....

Sadly, there is no magic money tree...

Therefore, every $1 that is used to subsidise propane is a $1 taken from somebody else... a $1 that could have been invested in new energy production in some way shape or form...

Also, when you start throwing money around in subsidies it is inevitable that people will take advantage of it - it didn't take me long to find this: -

Time to eliminate the propane gas subsidy?

The president of the Asociación Nacional de Distribuidores de Gas Licuado de Petróleo (Asonadigas) recommended that the government eliminate the subsidy on propane gas. He denounced that local businessmen are selling the subsidized fuel to Haitian businessmen for subsequent sale at much higher prices in neighboring Haiti. Some 150 million gallons of propane gas a year are consumed in the Dominican Republic, most heavily subsidized.


Every single time you introduce subsidies or charges the law of unintended circumstances comes into play and you find yourself worse off than you were before...

You're the expert:; How much has been spent subsidising propane? What could have been done with this money to provide a better energy infrastructure had there not been this subsidy?


I agree with you 100%.
As I posted earlier, Subsidies is a necessary evil but in the Dominican case, how do you save the trees?
What are you proposing? What is the alternative?

Bear in mind, this tree cutting phenomenon might "invade" Cyprus very soon due to the proposed/imminent austerity measures.
It's simple. People need to cook. They will use the least expensive fuel available to them regardless of the environmental dangers.
Sad but true. Deal with it.
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:46 am

georgios100 wrote:I agree with you 100%.
As I posted earlier, Subsidies is a necessary evil but in the Dominican case, how do you save the trees?
What are you proposing? What is the alternative?

Bear in mind, this tree cutting phenomenon might "invade" Cyprus very soon due to the proposed/imminent austerity measures.
It's simple. People need to cook. They will use the least expensive fuel available to them regardless of the environmental dangers.
Sad but true. Deal with it.


I asked a simple question... Where did the money come from for the subsidy?

If the DR has the money to subsidise 150 million tonnes of propane per year - including a lucrative black market - they had the money to do something better with it. What started this subsidy off in the first place...?

Another problem with a subsidy like this is that it is almost impossible to ever remove it. Subsidies are not a necessary evil - they are just evil.

As for Cyprus, I agree with you... I was saying in another thread that once you tax something (fuel) to a certain point people will find ways around that tax.

That inevitably leads to a reduction in tax revenues rather than an increase - it is called the Laffer Curve if you want to look it up...

But you are surely not suggesting that the government introduces (a necessary evil) subsidy to save the trees are you???

That would mean that the government had increased tax on something to the point where it was unaffordable then had to introduce a (costly) subsidy scheme so that people can afford to pay for it... :roll:
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:08 pm

something does not have to be taxed excessivly to be beyond the reach of the average citizen and where it is desireable to supply below cost, where the cost of not supplying will be greater.
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:20 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:something does not have to be taxed excessivly to be beyond the reach of the average citizen and where it is desireable to supply below cost, where the cost of not supplying will be greater.


For example...?
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:42 pm

education, heallth care?
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:10 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:education, heallth care?


I don't think either should be subsidised by the state (i.e. taxpayers).

Quite frankly, if you can't afford to educate and care for your children then you shouldn't have them...

...and people that choose not to have children shouldn't be forced to pay for those that do.

In fact, you've picked two excellent examples where the state shouldn't be involved at all...
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby georgios100 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:02 pm

The argument that all subsidies should be eliminated is baseless and totally unfair.
Certain subsidies target the weak part of the population attempting to provide the basic needs to survive due to the unaffordable cost of some goods or services.Failure to implement these subsidies may result in famine, starvation, crime etc.
Others subsidies are in place to promote growth and/or assist in the labor market/economy. Student subsidies speak for themselves. So do farming, fisheries and power production subsidies. Cyprus has literally hundreds of subsidies. Personally, I believe some of them are outdated, counter productive or just a product of corruption/favoritism. Some of these should be phased out or discontinued ASAP.

http://www.erec.org/fileadmin/erec_docs ... _Final.pdf
Cyprus has no indigenous sources of energy and at the moment, it is almost entirely dependent on imported
energy. In year 2007, imports of oil products, coal and pet coke for home consumption, amounted to 1.05 million
Euros, representing approximately 16.7% of the country’s domestic imports. Energy is therefore of vital
importance to the island’s economy.

The above paragraph is not totally true. Cyprus does have indigenous sources of energy. Which ones are they?
Well, the renewable energy sources... wind, solar, geothermal etc. Therefor, Cyprus should invest in these simply because its the only ones we got.

The recent discovery of natural gas/oil deposits is God given. Does this discovery means we should distance ourselves from the renewables?
If you ask any Cypriot, the answer is yes! If you ask the clean air environmentalists, the answer is no.

What is your answer Grump?
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:25 pm

georgios100 wrote:The argument that all subsidies should be eliminated is baseless and totally unfair.
Certain subsidies target the weak part of the population attempting to provide the basic needs to survive due to the unaffordable cost of some goods or services.Failure to implement these subsidies may result in famine, starvation, crime etc.
Others subsidies are in place to promote growth and/or assist in the labor market/economy. Student subsidies speak for themselves. So do farming, fisheries and power production subsidies. Cyprus has literally hundreds of subsidies. Personally, I believe some of them are outdated, counter productive or just a product of corruption/favoritism. Some of these should be phased out or discontinued ASAP.

http://www.erec.org/fileadmin/erec_docs ... _Final.pdf
Cyprus has no indigenous sources of energy and at the moment, it is almost entirely dependent on imported
energy. In year 2007, imports of oil products, coal and pet coke for home consumption, amounted to 1.05 million
Euros, representing approximately 16.7% of the country’s domestic imports. Energy is therefore of vital
importance to the island’s economy.

The above paragraph is not totally true. Cyprus does have indigenous sources of energy. Which ones are they?
Well, the renewable energy sources... wind, solar, geothermal etc. Therefor, Cyprus should invest in these simply because its the only ones we got.

The recent discovery of natural gas/oil deposits is God given. Does this discovery means we should distance ourselves from the renewables?
If you ask any Cypriot, the answer is yes! If you ask the clean air environmentalists, the answer is no.

What is your answer Grump?


It is very simple, but it seems pointless arguing the same things with you over and over again...

Yes, Cyprus does have wind and sun...

But turning them into electricity is not 'free' as you suggest - it costs millions in plant for the windmills (for instance), plus maintenance, plus the huge cost to the environment and wildlife...

And after spending millions on the technology, guess what?

Yesterday (Friday) the 42 bird mincers that I can see from my house stood idle ALL DAY!

So, as a simple case study, where did all the electricity that the island consumed yesterday come from???

Of course, it came from the traditional, installed generating capacity that we already had before we built (at enormous cost to the consumer) the wind farm... We still subsidised the wind farm yesterday though, like we do every other day when the wind doesn't blow or blows too strongly...

It is an utter, utter complete waste of money...

Perhaps in the future renewables will have their place... Right now though basing energy policy on such an unreliable energy source at massive cost to the consumer is madness...

Subsidising wind only lines the pockets of those in the industry like yourself... luckily, more and more people are beginning too see the madness of that situation...
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