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Wind farms vs wildlife

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Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:20 am

The shocking environmental cost of renewable energy

Wind turbines only last for ‘half as long as previously thought’, according to a new study. But even in their short lifespans, those turbines can do a lot of damage. Wind farms are devastating populations of rare birds and bats across the world, driving some to the point of extinction. Most environmentalists just don’t want to know. Because they’re so desperate to believe in renewable energy, they’re in a state of denial. But the evidence suggests that, this century at least, renewables pose a far greater threat to wildlife than climate change.
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Every year in Spain alone — according to research by the conservation group SEO/Birdlife — between 6 and 18 million birds and bats are killed by wind farms. They kill roughly twice as many bats as birds. This breaks down as approximately 110–330 birds per turbine per year and 200–670 bats per year. And these figures may be conservative if you compare them to statistics published in December 2002 by the California Energy Commission: ‘In a summary of avian impacts at wind turbines by Benner et al (1993) bird deaths per turbine per year were as high as 309 in Germany and 895 in Sweden.’


Clicky...

:shock:
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:30 am

climate change.jpg


wind-farms can cause climate change too through e.g. expansion cooling of the air: : here they are causing an artificial mist.
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Re: Coal fired power plants

Postby georgios100 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:05 pm

I must admit, the number of birds killed by wind turbines are impressive and worrisome.
But what are the alternatives to our power hungry society... Perhaps coal fired power plants.
Well, these coal plants kill a lot of birds as well as humans, read on...

Burning coal produces smog and harms our health
The Ontario Medical Association estimates that air pollution costs Ontario more than $10 billion per year in health care costs, lost work time and other quantifiable expenses, as well as killing an estimated 2,000 Ontarians each year. The OMA has declared air pollution "a public health crisis" in Ontario. Coal-fired power plants (click here to see a map of Ontario's five stations) are the single largest industrial contributors to this crisis. Coal-fired power plants are major producers of:

Nitrogen oxides, which combine with other pollutants to form ground-level ozone, one of the most noxious parts of the smog brew.
Sulphur dioxide, which contributes to the yellow haze that hangs over Southern Ontario and is a major factor in causing acid-rain damage to our lakes, rivers and forests.
Mercury, which can in even tiny amounts have a devastating impact on the human nervous system, especially for children and the unborn. Exposure to mercury can cause brain and kidney damage and even death. Mercury exposure has also been linked to impairment of children's reasoning skills.
Lead, which is also particularly harmful to children and can cause brain damage, impair growth, damage kidneys and cause learning and behavioral problems.
Heavy metals, including cadmium and chromium, which are known cancer-causing toxins.
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Re: Coal fired power plants

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:21 pm

georgios100 wrote:I must admit, the number of birds killed by wind turbines are impressive and worrisome.
But what are the alternatives to our power hungry society...


We could invest the billions wasted on bird-mincing wind farms on research into new energy like fusion...

Or we could just burn shale gas which is significantly less polluting than coal - in fact all the coal fired plants in the UK are being shut down (as you probably knew before posting the 'coal kills' bit)...

And the US has vast reserves of shale gas - it will be a net exporter of gas so has no need to burn coal...

Strange how you didn't mention gas as an alternative to bird-mincing, uneconomic wind farms... :lol:
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby georgios100 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:47 pm

Natural gas is a better alternative, I agree but due to the abundance of coal, governments are always
tempted to burn it as a cheaper solution. Billions are spend on fusion R&D in the past 30 years without success.

Look, whatever fuel sources we use off this planet, will always have a price to pay (CO2, acid rain, nuclear waste etc).
There is no free lunch here. The demand will increase year after year, you know that. We must produce power in any way possible,
including renewable energies. I welcome any new sources of energy production, we need them.

My new project is a pneumatic bilge pump powered by wind alone. No electrical components whatsoever - none.
I filed for patent a few months back. Are you opposing this too?
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:01 pm

georgios100 wrote:
My new project is a pneumatic bilge pump powered by wind alone. No electrical components whatsoever - none.
I filed for patent a few months back. Are you opposing this too?


No, if it works then good for you....

I've said before, if it works and is economic and viable I'm all for it...

With hindsight, if I'd fitted a solar-powered pump to my pool I would have saved money... because I only need it to run when it is sunny and if it misses a day or so I don't care... If the bilge pump works and you don't take on too much water on those odd occasions when you are becalmed it is clearly a good solution.

What I completely, totally and utterly object to is technology that is inefficient and doesn't work - like wind farms for grid power generation. I totally object to spending billions on pointless bird mincers to reduce CO2 a little which will have no effect whatsoever on the world climate yet puts millions into 'fuel poverty'....

I totally object to that govern us lining their pockets while pensioners die of the cold because they cannot afford to eat and heat...

I totally object to the government interfering in what should be a free energy market...

If all these 'renewable' products are so good - then let them compete in a level playing field with no subsidies or outside interference...

if your bilge pump can compete with the alternative (I have no idea what that is), be cheaper to run and do the job and not result in the boat sinking when the wind doesn't blow then it deserves to succeed...
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby georgios100 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:17 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:
My new project is a pneumatic bilge pump powered by wind alone. No electrical components whatsoever - none.
I filed for patent a few months back. Are you opposing this too?


No, if it works then good for you....

I've said before, if it works and is economic and viable I'm all for it...

With hindsight, if I'd fitted a solar-powered pump to my pool I would have saved money... because I only need it to run when it is sunny and if it misses a day or so I don't care... If the bilge pump works and you don't take on too much water on those odd occasions when you are becalmed it is clearly a good solution.

What I completely, totally and utterly object to is technology that is inefficient and doesn't work - like wind farms for grid power generation. I totally object to spending billions on pointless bird mincers to reduce CO2 a little which will have no effect whatsoever on the world climate yet puts millions into 'fuel poverty'....

I totally object to that govern us lining their pockets while pensioners die of the cold because they cannot afford to eat and heat...

I totally object to the government interfering in what should be a free energy market...

If all these 'renewable' products are so good - then let them compete in a level playing field with no subsidies or outside interference...

if your bilge pump can compete with the alternative (I have no idea what that is), be cheaper to run and do the job and not result in the boat sinking when the wind doesn't blow then it deserves to succeed...


There are many people like you, that object to subsidizing wind energy, I can see a good point there.
Additionally, irrigation windmills were installed by the millions all over the planet. these windmills kill birds too, while
pumping water from the borehole to produce the vegetables you consume every day. Are you opposing these as well?

Solar pool pumps are in the market for many years, too expensive and inefficient I might add.
Electric bilge pumps for boats are the only alternative for the moment. It's consisted of a small submersible electric water pump
connected to a dedicated deep cycle marine battery along with a floater switch and misc wiring/switches/fuses etc.
Water & electricity is a bad mix. These bilge systems often fail resulting in boat sinking...
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:08 pm

georgios100 wrote:There are many people like you, that object to subsidizing wind energy, I can see a good point there.
Additionally, irrigation windmills were installed by the millions all over the planet. these windmills kill birds too, while
pumping water from the borehole to produce the vegetables you consume every day. Are you opposing these as well?


If there is a better/cheaper/safer alternative the answer has to be an emphatic 'YES!'

But if it is the only solution available then it makes sense (although I'd have to say that water pumps tend not to be hundreds of meters high)...

Man has the most amazing ability to innovate, as you chose irrigation I am reminded of a report that I read recently (I'll find it if you like)...

Did you know that the world's population has grown to seven billion?

Yet, due to innovation and the development of irrigation, tractors, new varieties of seeds, etc. we now need less farmland than we did years ago to feed all these extra people...?

All this done without subsidising the new technology...

Imagine where we could be with the energy market if it were not artificially skewed in favour of inefficient 'renewable' energy sources...?
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby georgios100 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:00 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:There are many people like you, that object to subsidizing wind energy, I can see a good point there.
Additionally, irrigation windmills were installed by the millions all over the planet. these windmills kill birds too, while
pumping water from the borehole to produce the vegetables you consume every day. Are you opposing these as well?


If there is a better/cheaper/safer alternative the answer has to be an emphatic 'YES!'

But if it is the only solution available then it makes sense (although I'd have to say that water pumps tend not to be hundreds of meters high)...

Man has the most amazing ability to innovate, as you chose irrigation I am reminded of a report that I read recently (I'll find it if you like)...


You wrote:
All this done without subsidising the new technology...

The Cypriot farmers get all kinds of subsidizing from taxpayer money, including huge amounts for irrigation water.
How do you explain 67% of Cyprus water resources consumed by farmers, while farming is only 5% of Cyprus GDP?
Water related subsidies account to approx 5 million Euros in the last 5 years... a heck of a lot more than wind turbine subsidies!

I urge you to look into the farmer subsidies prior to responding back to me.
Last thing we need in CF is a bias opinion on selected subsidies... we should examine all subsides without exceptions
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Re: Wind farms vs wildlife

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:15 pm

georgios100 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
georgios100 wrote:There are many people like you, that object to subsidizing wind energy, I can see a good point there.
Additionally, irrigation windmills were installed by the millions all over the planet. these windmills kill birds too, while
pumping water from the borehole to produce the vegetables you consume every day. Are you opposing these as well?


If there is a better/cheaper/safer alternative the answer has to be an emphatic 'YES!'

But if it is the only solution available then it makes sense (although I'd have to say that water pumps tend not to be hundreds of meters high)...

Man has the most amazing ability to innovate, as you chose irrigation I am reminded of a report that I read recently (I'll find it if you like)...


You wrote:
All this done without subsidising the new technology...

The Cypriot farmers get all kinds of subsidizing from taxpayer money, including huge amounts for irrigation water.
How do you explain 67% of Cyprus water resources consumed by farmers, while farming is only 5% of Cyprus GDP?
Water related subsidies account to approx 5 million Euros in the last 5 years... a heck of a lot more than wind turbine subsidies!

I urge you to look into the farmer subsidies prior to responding back to me.
Last thing we need in CF is a bias opinion on selected subsidies... we should examine all subsides without exceptions


I would guess that 'we' have subsidised (and continue to subsidise) the wind farms much more than €5M over the past five years...

However, that is irrelevant...

Any subsidy distorts the free market and is not in the interest of anybody except the person in receipt of the subsidy... The consumer (and taxpayer) spends far more than would otherwise be the case if the free market was left to itself..

But my point remains valid... the free market provides food for seven billion on the planet using less land than would otherwise have been the case... there is the possibility of a huge return of land for recreational use...

And guess what is the main reason why the land to be returned is not much, much larger...? Biofuels - another ridiculous market intervention...

I'm not for subsidising Cypriot farmers or anybody else - we'd all be much better off if the market was left alone...
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