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SCRAP THE ANNAN PLAN

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby bg_turk » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:02 am

Main_Source wrote:lol...no what happend in Kosovo is the ethnic muslims were causing trouble in order to breakaway and have their own state...and the Serbs retaliated with way too much force.


you mean the same way ethnic christians were causing trouble in Cyprus in the 60s? ... and the Turks retaliated with too much force :(
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Postby bg_turk » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:16 am

Birkibrisli wrote:
Main_Source wrote:lol...no what happend in Kosovo is the ethnic muslims were causing trouble in order to breakaway and have their own state...and the Serbs retaliated with way too much force.


What about what happened between the Serbs and Croatians,Souce?
I guess it was the Bosnian muslims who made them kill each other as well? :lol:


I am not surprised at his statements Birkibrisli, he is simply performing his national duty towards the regional interests of Greece.
Greece blindly supports any dictatorship in the Balkans that persecutes muslims.
Greece refused to allow NATO use its airspace during the Bosnia and Kosovo interventions, and it was strongly against them supporting the actions of Slobo Milosevic who was performing ethnic cleansing against civilians and waging his wars for "Greater Serbia". Also when the communist regime in Bulgaria started changing our names, Greece was the only EC member-state that openly supported the regime. I dont know why they did and why they continue to show so anti-muslim tendencies. I think they have this kind of theory that Turkey is plotting to surround greece with a muslim chain or something.
While the Srebrenitsa massacres were occuring, and Serbia was cleansing Kosovo of Albanians, Greece was advocating inaction and obstructing the work of the international community to bring a little bit of justice.

Now having sad that I do not blindly support the albanians in Kosovo, and their actions where they have recently cleansed many serbs out of the province. They set on fire many ancient medieval churches :oops: , and what did the serbians did to take revenge? They set on fire a medieval TURKISH mosque in Belgrade which had no association with albanians.

Also my best friend is Serbian and he told me about his experience with the bombing of Belgrade, it is pretty depressing, war is never a good thing.

Shivers run down my spine when I think Bulgaria could have ended up like Bosnia or something, but fortunately we were lucky, nothing bad happened, so we live in peace with bulgarians now.
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8th/11/2005

Postby Vassos1 » Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:36 pm

Birkibrisli and all,

Are you honestly telling me that your “Gene Pool” greatly differs from the Chinese?

Let me rephrase, every person in the world is, at some point, related by blood. However, it is what we accept today that counts and not some infamous scientific report. Birkibrisli, we have never lived together, we have always gone to separate schools and had our separate traditions. Living in the same neighbourhood with an Indian family in London for instance does not mean that the British should change what is rightfully theirs. We are not blood brothers today; perhaps some “Forced” connection by your Ottoman soldiers around the years of 1571+, but that is a connection that I would always disregard. Somewhere along the lines from that date, we Greek Cypriots have struggled to re-establish ourselves into a strong community.

Please don’t get me wrong Birkibrisli, I too want to promote peace, but your ideology is impossible in this world. I would even go as saying that you have certainly ignored the events of the past; The Turkish Invasion, the struggle from 1955 to 1973, the reduced Republic of Cyprus state from 1974 and the on-going illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus as the TRNC. My belief that we should strike a compromise with two states is only based on the practical realities of today, and what has been accepted by the European Union in other countries whose people have major differences. We, in Cyprus have major differences, ones that will almost certainly bring about a hostile atmosphere if we are forced to live under one federal government. I, as a Greek Cypriot, believe that peace can only be secured if both communities are left alone in their rightful republic states in order to bridge a relationship as two co-republics of Cyprus. However, that does not mean that you should control 37%. And, this is where the opinion of us Greek Cypriots differs to your, I believe that it should be formed on the REALITIES of today, and that is 22% for the Turkish Cypriots and the remaining 78% to the Greek Cypriots. Now, that would be accepted as an amicable agreement.

My mentality and arguments are not part of the problem Birkibrisli, but part of the reality of Cyprus as it was us who formed the 76% “No” on the Annan Plan in 2004. And, it will be us who will certainly form an 80+ percent on any other.

PIRATIS: Your Question..,
“I ask you again, and please don't try to avoid answering this time: Even if we assume that a good solution can never be found, why would a recognized "TRNC" be better for us than the status quo?”


Answer:
I regard myself as a realist, a person who lives his life based on factual realities and not myths. Whether we like it or not, the unrecognised area known as the “TRNC” is, and will eventually, be totally and gradually forced upon us. I do not agree with it, and would love for the Turkish Cypriots to start a revolution and destroy this idea of a separate state in the North. However, unfortunately, and as I have said that I am a realist, this may no longer be an option for us in the future. The so-called TRNC is here to stay no matter what we force ourselves to believe. Whether it will be in the form of a Turkish Cypriot Constituent state, or a Taiwan type of representation, we may one day have to accept certain practical realities of today.

Therefore, I am only recommending that we have a chance now, and not tomorrow, to broker an “ACCEPTABLE” two-state deal with some transferred advantages to us before the so-called TRNC is legally forced on us. Please take a look at what has happened since the Annan Plan 5 and since Raf Denktash has left: Azerbaijan has started its road to recognising the state (along with the other Turkic states in transition), the OIC have upgraded its representation to “Turkish Cypriot State” and Mehmet Ali Tallat is more or less willing to accept any formula in order to destroy the present state of us representing the Republic of Cyprus. What more evidence do we need?

The day of the Turkish hardliners is over, while it is really the Turkish Liberals who are forcing change. The Turkish Hardliner tactics has not gain them anything, and this has been proved many times since 1974. The new Turkish Cypriot leader is very dangerous, while the Turkish Cypriot political groups are even worst.

And NO, I can not do the same in Greek, I can actually do better. Haven’t you understood by my standard of English that it is my second language? My Greek is perfect; my Turkish is not too bad; although the writing is a piece of cake, while my English may just award me a pass at GCSE level.

bg_turk:
“War is never a good thing”

I have lived though many unfortunate events in Cyprus throughout the 1960s and early 70s, where I find it amazing how both communities in Cyprus are still trying to seek a pure unification plan. Cyprus is peaceful today, but its political and territorial scenario is not acceptable. If the Turkish Cypriots accepted that they are not, and can not claim ownership of 37% of the land in Cyprus, I am sure we Greek Cypriots will be able to offer you an agreed resolution similar to that of Serbia/Montenegro.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:18 pm

Thank you for your response,Vassos.
I do certainly hope that my gene pool is very different to the Chinese.
I look nothing like them.But I bet you I look a lot like you!

If you want to deny what I know for sure, that there have been thousands of mixed marriages-hushed up unfortunately,not to mention the thousands of love-children from mixed couples,then we will have to agree to disagree on the existence of a Cypriot nation with their own gene pool.

You say your position is based on reality,but we don't have to accept the reality if we think we can do better.It was once the reality that Cyprus was under Ottoman rule.It was once a reality that Cyprus was under British rule.Reality has a habit of changing,but not without persistent, committed,brave,progressive action.It was once the reality that witches were burnt at stake.Are you not glad that reality changed with more enlightened times?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:35 pm

My mentality and arguments are not part of the problem Birkibrisli, but part of the reality of Cyprus as it was us who formed the 76% “No” on the Annan Plan in 2004. And, it will be us who will certainly form an 80+ percent on any other.

You are a very small part of that 76%. That 76% said no to a partition plan. The great majority would not say "no" to a plan that would truly unify our country.

22% for the Turkish Cypriots and the remaining 78% to the Greek Cypriots


Why 22% for TCs when they are the 18%?

The so-called TRNC is here to stay no matter what we force ourselves to believe. Whether it will be in the form of a Turkish Cypriot Constituent state, or a Taiwan type of representation, we may one day have to accept certain practical realities of today.

The "realities" of today will not be the same realities tomorrow. As far as Taiwan goes, I give it a max of 15 years before it becomes again part of China. When this happen I hope it will be a lesson to those that can not distinguish the great difference between a recognized independent state and an unrecognized state that its existance depends on certain balance of power. The ones that think that "TRNC" can become Taiwan are dreaming anyways. At max, what the "TRNC" can achieve is to be another 3rd world "country" until the balance of power will change.
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18-22% ONLY for an Agreement

Postby Vassos1 » Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:32 pm

EITHER WE FORMULATE A FEREDAL REPUBLIC BASED ON 18-22% TURKISH TERRITORIAL AND GOVERNMENT ALLOCATION, OR WE DIVIDE INTO TWO AUTONOMOUS REPUBLIC STATES UNTIL THE TIME IS RIGHT.

PIRATIS
You are a very small part of that 76%. That 76% said no to a partition plan. The great majority would not say "no" to a plan that would truly unify our country.


The 76% who said no, did so due to a number of obvious indicators we could not accept as the majority on the island, and that it was devised solely by an external organization, source or group; like the UN, EU and etc. Therefore we are at dead-lock, and will always be. Why? Because we and the Turkish Cypriots want two totally different formulas.

Why was the Annan Plan rejected?

Here is your answer, and it was not because it was a “Partition Plan”, but more of an “Interfering-Dissolving Plan”.

Let’s not beat around the bush with an unworkable, unrealistic Annan Style plan, as what is acceptable, or not, is very obvious. If you had any idea of how governments work, you’d know that the Annan Plan, or any like it, would fail within its first general election campaign.

1) The Turkish Cypriots, representing 18% of the population of Cyprus, can not demand “TOTAL” equality in all areas of a Federal Republic.

2) The Annan Plan gave the Turkish Cypriots too much in a federal republic style plan. By only consisting of 18% of the island’s population, they should only be allowed that exact ratio of governance in any area of territorial claim or governmental representation.

The above TWO points are the very reasons as to why a federal style government-unification plan will never be accepted. We, as Greek Cypriots who represent 76% of the island of Cyprus, deserve to represent exactly that amount in any unification plan. Anything less would not be regarded as ethical, equal or logical. Can you imagine a Republic where a small minority (of 18%) has a voting power of 50% of a government?

However, that is where the Annan Plan had failed, and I am sure the Turkish Cypriots would have rejected the plan if it had been written to reflect the facts on the island. Are you all seriously trying to tell me that we should accept a unification plan that gives the Turkish Cypriot the exact equal amount of governmental rights as us, 76% of the island’s population – please think about the facts?

This is why I would strongly recommend a resolution based on two Republic states. Please don’t get me wrong, I too do not advocate the legality of the Turkish Invasion, but accepting a federal plan where the Turkish Cypriots represent more than the size of their population would actually be legalising the invasion of 1974.

At least by forming a union of two autonomous Republic states, with the Turkish Cypriots representing a maximum of a 22% slice of Cyprus’ territory, will give both communities a fair balance according to the realities of today. Can you imagine how confusing it would be if the Turkish Cypriots were given 50% control of a federal government with a population of less than 20% of the entire island?

In conclusion, and I hope that I have shed some practical government/ administrative related issues, a Cyprus divided with two autonomous republic states would promote peace in the following way:

1) Both republics will be able to work with each other with no issue of “minority” or “majority”

2) Both republic states can work with each other in the areas of Sport, Economic collaboration and immigration.

3) Both Republics will be able to assist one another in Bi-republic ventures, and would even promote good feeling amongst even the most patriot Greek or Turkish Cypriot. Why? Because we would actually respect the territorial, and administrive integrity of the co-Cypriot Republics.

4) And finally, we can actually start “building” on establishing good offices for a truly united Cyprus without any external pressure or infamous, unworkable Annan style Plans.

It all depends on just one very important input, and that is the acceptance by the Turkish Cypriot administration, and it’s public, that they establish their Republic according to the reality of the size of their population. A 22% allocation to the Turkish Cypriots, especially under Mehmet Ali Tallat, would actually be a very probably possibility. I am sure Turkish PM Erdohan would not object to such a formula.

Remember, both republics will not be allowed to station any type of military force, other than the expected Police service.

Doesn’t that sound logical?
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Postby Agios Amvrosios » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:02 am

Vassos 1 , I do not know of a single person who voted for the plan or would admit to voting for it , I only know people who voted against the plan. Not even one of those people said that they voted against the plan because of the reasons you claim they did. They voted against it because the plan institutionalised ethnic cleansing/partition(taksim). Most of the people I know of caurse are fro Kyrenia so they had no incentive to even put the plan on the bottom of there bird cages.

I'm not interested in your so called "realities."

Genocide and ethnic cleansing are "real" but they are illegal.
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MY FORMULA

Postby Vassos1 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:45 pm

Agios Amvrosios,

All I am saying is that if the Turkish Cypriots agreed that they would accept a separate republic of 18%-22% of the island, wouldn’t that mean that we can finally put a lid on this issue. Do you really want to live in a federal unified republic with 200’000 + Turkish Cypriots, with a higher birth rate than ours, 50% of the government, 45’000 Turks from Turkey, a Turkish military force and rights for Turkey to intervene if hostilities should break our, or would you prefer a Serbia/Montenegro style of a two-republic agreement.

It is because of the Ethnic cleansing, Partition and etc that I recommend a Two-CYPRIOT Republic formula. People are automatically assuming that I mean Partition. By accepting a two-republic agreement based on two CYPRIOT republics, this will eliminate Turkey from the Cypriot equation and keep the island full of the original Cypriot citizens only. If we fail to seek such an agreement and continue with ignoring the present so-called TRNC authority, we will suddenly wake up WITH PARTITION and with Turkey controlling it. Please take a look below of my frame of mind:

Official Country Name:
CYPRUS

Administration:
The Republic of Cyprus (Greek Cypriot) and The Republic of
Northern Cyprus (Turkish Cypriot) HAVE YOU REALISED THAT THE WORD TURKISH WILL BE REMOVED!

Northern Territory:
18-22% of the island, with births of its Cititzens traced back direct, or related to those prior to 1974.

President:
Two co-Presidents representing their own Republic states.

COLLABORATION:
Although Cyprus will consist of two-autonomous states, there will be certain operations that will be represented as one.

1) Sports, All CYPRUS teams will consist of both Greek and Turkish Cypriot players. Only one country name will represent CYPRUS.

2) There will be no military personnel on the island, and Turkey will be required to COMPLETELY remove its forces and any type of rights of intervention.

3) There will be complete freedom of movement and settlement, although each Cypriot will be issued title deeds according to the Republic they wish to permanently settle in. Citizens will not be allowed to purchase any territory under FREEHOLD in both Republic states, while they will be able to Purchase leasehold in the other.

4) The Cyprus flag will be one, although it may have to change from its present design. Perhaps a Green outline of Cyprus with one “Red” leaf and one “Blue” leaf representing each of the Turkish and Greek Cypriot communities.

5) Although the Voting system will be unique and independent for both of the Republic states, the co-presents office will be located in the same location, with perhaps a new building to represent a new order.

6) All legal issues, courts and judges will represent both Republic states. Greek and Turkish will be compulsory in all schools.

7) The present border will be dissolved and replaced with a temporary state-line patrolled by the police force and UN personnel.

8) Although there will be two republic states, the offices of EDUCATION, FLIGHT CONTROL, IMMIGRATION, LAW AND ALL EXTERNAL REPRESENTATIONS will be as one.

In my opinion, I believe that the above will be a fair deal. It will protect the CYPRIOT structure and heritage, will eliminate all external influence; Turkey, Britain and Greece, and will recreate harmony with all Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

Finally, it will allow both communities to GRADUALLY work alongside in order to decide AMONGST themselves when it would be appropriate to, if possible, to formulate a TOTAL unification plan. At least by adopting this method of a solution, both side will get what they want. It all depends on the Turkish Cypriots.

Rather than immediately lash out regarding the above, I would appreciate it if you could provide some constructive reasons and analysis. Although I love my country and heritage, I am open to new ideas.

NB - Please note that I am referring to an 18%-22% as I am sure the Turkish Cypriots will no doubt disaprove of the 18%..but will have to accept a maximum of 22%. The above agreement can work and can be internationally forced on Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots as a realistic option.
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Re: MY FORMULA

Postby Kifeas » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:07 pm

Vassos1 wrote:Agios Amvrosios,

All I am saying is that if the Turkish Cypriots agreed that they would accept a separate republic of 18%-22% of the island, wouldn’t that mean that we can finally put a lid on this issue. Do you really want to live in a federal unified republic with 200’000 + Turkish Cypriots, with a higher birth rate than ours, 50% of the government, 45’000 Turks from Turkey, a Turkish military force and rights for Turkey to intervene if hostilities should break our, or would you prefer a Serbia/Montenegro style of a two-republic agreement.

It is because of the Ethnic cleansing, Partition and etc that I recommend a Two-CYPRIOT Republic formula. People are automatically assuming that I mean Partition. By accepting a two-republic agreement based on two CYPRIOT republics, this will eliminate Turkey from the Cypriot equation and keep the island full of the original Cypriot citizens only. If we fail to seek such an agreement and continue with ignoring the present so-called TRNC authority, we will suddenly wake up WITH PARTITION and with Turkey controlling it. Please take a look below of my frame of mind:

Official Country Name:
CYPRUS

Administration:
The Republic of Cyprus (Greek Cypriot) and The Republic of
Northern Cyprus (Turkish Cypriot) HAVE YOU REALISED THAT THE WORD TURKISH WILL BE REMOVED!

Northern Territory:
18-22% of the island, with births of its Cititzens traced back direct, or related to those prior to 1974.

President:
Two co-Presidents representing their own Republic states.

COLLABORATION:
Although Cyprus will consist of two-autonomous states, there will be certain operations that will be represented as one.

1) Sports, All CYPRUS teams will consist of both Greek and Turkish Cypriot players. Only one country name will represent CYPRUS.

2) There will be no military personnel on the island, and Turkey will be required to COMPLETELY remove its forces and any type of rights of intervention.

3) There will be complete freedom of movement and settlement, although each Cypriot will be issued title deeds according to the Republic they wish to permanently settle in. Citizens will not be allowed to purchase any territory under FREEHOLD in both Republic states, while they will be able to Purchase leasehold in the other.

4) The Cyprus flag will be one, although it may have to change from its present design. Perhaps a Green outline of Cyprus with one “Red” leaf and one “Blue” leaf representing each of the Turkish and Greek Cypriot communities.

5) Although the Voting system will be unique and independent for both of the Republic states, the co-presents office will be located in the same location, with perhaps a new building to represent a new order.

6) All legal issues, courts and judges will represent both Republic states. Greek and Turkish will be compulsory in all schools.

7) The present border will be dissolved and replaced with a temporary state-line patrolled by the police force and UN personnel.

8) Although there will be two republic states, the offices of EDUCATION, FLIGHT CONTROL, IMMIGRATION, LAW AND ALL EXTERNAL REPRESENTATIONS will be as one.

In my opinion, I believe that the above will be a fair deal. It will protect the CYPRIOT structure and heritage, will eliminate all external influence; Turkey, Britain and Greece, and will recreate harmony with all Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

Finally, it will allow both communities to GRADUALLY work alongside in order to decide AMONGST themselves when it would be appropriate to, if possible, to formulate a TOTAL unification plan. At least by adopting this method of a solution, both side will get what they want. It all depends on the Turkish Cypriots.

Rather than immediately lash out regarding the above, I would appreciate it if you could provide some constructive reasons and analysis. Although I love my country and heritage, I am open to new ideas.

NB - Please note that I am referring to an 18%-22% as I am sure the Turkish Cypriots will no doubt disaprove of the 18%..but will have to accept a maximum of 22%. The above agreement can work and can be internationally forced on Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots as a realistic option.


I am sorry Vassos but your plan /proposal /whatever, makes absolutely no sense. Are you proposing one sovereign and independed country or two. If you are proposing one sovereign and independed country, what is it going to be? a Unitary state like Cyprus was supposed to be under the 1960 constitution or a federation?
If it is going to be a federation, are you proposing it to be a strong (a highly centralised one) or a loose (a weak) one (like the A-plan?)

If you are proposing a two sovereign states formula, then is your proposal assuming a confederation?
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Shed any light?

Postby Vassos1 » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:45 pm

Kifeas,

I am sorry Vassos but your plan /proposal /whatever, makes absolutely no sense. Are you proposing one sovereign and independed country or two. If you are proposing one sovereign and independed country, what is it going to be? a Unitary state like Cyprus was supposed to be under the 1960 constitution or a federation?
If it is going to be a federation, are you proposing it to be a strong (a highly centralised one) or a loose (a weak) one (like the A-plan?)

If you are proposing a two sovereign states formula, then is your proposal assuming a confederation?


It makes perfect sense, although I didn’t expect you to read between the lines.

I am proposing a “unique” formula for Cyprus as it is very different to let say Belgium, Switzerland or Canada. A confederation it is definitely not as it consist of very important controls in representing Cyprus as one country externally, while emphasizing a two-republic formula for internal affairs.

By adopting my suggestion, I would have thought that our present Republic of Cyprus constitution will on need minor adjustments.

a) The removal of the Article of Intervention by one of the guarantor countries.
b) Removing any reference to Turkish Cypriot representation, thus transferring their representation in Cyprus to the Republic of Northern Cyprus.
c) The 1960 Constitution will merely be “Extended” in order to represent this change in administration, as opposed to having to commit to a NEW CYPRUS PLAN.

The Federal Structure will be a “strong” Cypriot based agreement; even through its internal affairs will represent a more realistic organization.

Let us not forget, the Cyprus problem is unique, and it is the labeling of the words of Federation, Confederation and Unification that has scared or even prevented an amicable agreement between the two Cypriot entities.

As part of the “Amended” constitution, I would have thought that both Cypriot Republic states could also commit to a re-evaluation of the Federal agreement in order to bring it closer after a successful time of 15-20 years.
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