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A true partnership: Fair, viable and stable

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A true partnership: Fair, viable and stable

Postby insan » Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:37 pm

What are you talking about? Do the states in the US have equal political power in everything? Do they have rotating presidencies and crap like that?



Of coarse all states in US have equal political power... They equally share the power in Senate and proportionally in House of Representatives; nevertheles all states have the same limited
URL autonomy Autonomy is not independence.



URL On such matters as the operation of businesses, banks, public utilities, and charitable institutions, state constitutions are often more detailed and explicit than the federal constitution.



The federal government itself consists of three branches: the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch.


U.S. state
A U.S. State is any one of the fifty states which is a member of the federation known as the United States of America. Sovereignty is divided between the individual states and the federal government. Under the United States Constitution, the federal government can legislate only on matters explicitly delegated to it by the Constitution, with the remaining governmental powers belonging to the states.



Each house of Congress has the power to introduce legislation on any subject except raising revenue, which must originate in the House of Representatives. The large states may thus appear to have more influence over the public purse than the small states. In practice, however, each house can vote against legislation passed by the other house.


The New federalism is a policy theme which became popular in the 1980s and 1990s in the United States that refers to the devolution of power from the federal (central) government to the states. It relies on the Ninth Amendment and Tenth Amendment to provide a constitutional underpinning.


NEW FEDERALISM

New federalism typically involves the Federal government providing block grants to the states to resolve a social issue. The Federal government then monitors outcomes but provides broad discretion to the states for how the programs are implemented.


http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/New-federalism




Conclusion:

In Cyprus there are two politically equal communities(Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots) and some minorities(Maronites, Latins and Armenians). TCs and GCs as the two major communities of Cyprus are entitled to form a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation. Sovereignty should be divided between the individual states and the federal government. The power should be devolved from central government to the to the states. Under the United Cyprus Constitution, the federal government can legislate only on matters explicitly delegated to it by the Constitution, with the remaining governmental powers belonging to the states. The Federal government is entitled to monitor outcomes but provides broad discretion to the states for how the programs are implemented.


According to this federative structure the federal government itself consists of three branches: the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch.

Power should be shared proportionaly for executive branch, equally for legislative and judicial branches.


1- The executive Branch (House of Representatives) :

38 representatives from GC state and 9 TC +2 GC representatives from TC state.

All executive powers and positions of states and central state shall be shared proportionaly.



2- The Legislative Branch (Senate) :


18 senators from GC state and 20 TC + 2 GC senators from TC state.


The decisions shall be taken according to various kind of majority votes dependently the significiance of the issues.


3- Judicial Branch (The Supreme Court):

2 judges from GC state, 2 judges from TC state and one foreign judge from the countries other than Turkey and Greece.


I think this is the true; viable, stable partnership of two communities... What's your opinions?
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Re: A true partnership: Fair, viable and stable

Postby erolz » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:15 pm

insan wrote:I think this is the true; viable, stable partnership of two communities... What's your opinions?


Sorry Insan but I think that as long as people like Piratis are around and their views represents a significant amount ot the GC population and more importantly of the views of those in power, then any such agreement - no matter how fair and balanced - is doomed to fail. If the bulk of GC opinion and power has a WILL to ensure the TC are reduced to a minority then any such agreement above will fail just as the 1960 constitution did. :(
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:50 pm

Insan, I lived in the US for some years, and I even took a course about their political system (although I admit it has been a while and I don't remember everything).

As I said we can accept as a compromise a federation like the US one.
The only difference is that in the US they have not 2 but 52 states. Therefore no state by itself can have an effective veto power in the senate. Since California is 60 times bigger than Wyoming, and Wyoming still has 2 senators, then I don't see why the proportionately more Armenians, Maronites, and Latins should not have their 2 senators also. This is closer to the American system.

Also, as is the case in the US, all states have exactly the same number of senators, and all residents of that state have the right to elect and be elected as senators. This should be the case in Cyprus as well.

3- Judicial Branch

In the US the judges come in equal numbers from each state? Are you sure about that? (if its like that then I accept it)
Whats for sure is that they don't have a foreign judge.

If you want to adopt the US system, then I have no problem. I believe I said this many times already.

Erolz,
No matter how much you try you will either be an illegal state, or a minority. As long as you have the power you have a choice between the two, when your power runs out (and it will at some point) then you will have no choice. It is as simple as that.
So it is for your own benefit to come to an agreement now (which will not make you anything more than minority, but it will give you a state, autonomy and several privileges), because later you will not have this chance.

You really have to be stupid when you know that you are an 18% minority, to insist on more and more and in the end loose everything.
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Postby insan » Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:24 pm

As I said we can accept as a compromise a federation like the US one.
The only difference is that in the US they have not 2 but 52 states.


There are some more differneces as well... The historical background of two communities and the location of the Cyprus.

Therefore no state by itself can have an effective veto power in the senate. Since California is 60 times bigger than Wyoming, and Wyoming still has 2 senators, then I don't see why the proportionately more Armenians, Maronites, and Latins should not have their 2 senators also. This is closer to the American system.



Do you consider the various kind of majority voting method as a kind of veto in Senate? You afraid of being blocked by TC senators but don't try to put yourself in TCs place and understand their fears of being blocked by GC senators. The conditions are same for both parties. If they be the good partners noone can block other one if not necessary. You talk about of partnership but then you tell me you don't trust us. So why should TCs trust to you?

Also, as is the case in the US, all states have exactly the same number of senators, and all residents of that state have the right to elect and be elected as senators. This should be the case in Cyprus as well.



Of coarse... but it should be limited to preserve the equality as I mentioned above. Minorities can be a candidate of any political party in the state which they are a resident of... Every federal state has its component states and the minorities which reside in those component states as the residents of it. There are two communities in Cyprus which have been negotiating to form a Federation and this is our issue. Why do you try to manipulate it by giving the Maronites, Armenians etc as an irrelevant example?

3- Judicial Branch

In the US the judges come in equal numbers from each state? Are you sure about that? (if its like that then I accept it)
Whats for sure is that they don't have a foreign judge.



A federative structure which mainly is based based on American federal system does not mean that it should be as same as the American federal system. Cyprus has its own private conditions. What we should try to focus on is to examine all Federative systems, take the appropriate and shape them to fit both communities needs; in order to make it fair, viable, secure and stable for both communities and their people.

If you want to adopt the US system, then I have no problem. I believe I said this many times already.


Yes I have no problem too... but as I said the American federal system should be shaped per Cyprus conditions.

Erolz,
No matter how much you try you will either be an illegal state, or a minority. As long as you have the power you have a choice between the two, when your power runs out (and it will at some point) then you will have no choice. It is as simple as that.
So it is for your own benefit to come to an agreement now (which will not make you anything more than minority, but it will give you a state, autonomy and several privileges), because later you will not have this chance.



TCS either will be an equal partner of GC community or a legal seperate state. The one who lose its plausibility, day by day; is the leadership of GC community. so you better worry about yourself...

You really have to be stupid when you know that you are an 18% minority, to insist on more and more and in the end loose everything.



Insisting on equal political rights of two communities is not something "more and more"... TCs are %18 of the total population of Cyprus and they deserve to be the equal partner of GC community. If TCs had been %7-8 or less of the total population; they could definetly obbey to be a minority in Cyprus. TCs had never been 1/5 of the total population of Cyprus. Those who temporarily live abroad would return some day no doubt.

If GC community don't accept the political equality of TC community; they will not be able to find a single TC who will take side by GC community and struggle together to overcome other key issues such as presence of foreign troops, settlers, British bases, guarantorship of foreign countries etc...
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:15 pm

If you examine all federations (I am not talking about confederations and such), you will see that the bigger states have more power. Yes, in some issues a special majority of the states is needed, but not in everything.

This is a very basic issue. If you want political equality in everything, this is simply beyond federation and is obviously something that can not be accepted.

TCS either will be an equal partner of GC community or a legal seperate state.


Well, maybe you need 30 more years to realize that your pseudo state will never be legalized. I thought you should have figured that already, but I guess you fall in the trap of the Annan.

The trap is that with the made to be rejected Annan plan they achieved 2 things (among others).

1)Make you believe that Greek Cypriots are the ones to blame for the non-solution so you will not revolt against Turkey when you saw RC getting in EU and you left behind.

2) Give you fake hopes that either the Annan plan will be accepted in the future, or you will have a recognized state.

Sure, they will give you a couple of minor gifts to show to you that not everything they promised was fake, but in the end you will realize too that the whole think was a trap for both GCs and TCs.

The sooner you wake up the better for both of us.
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Postby erolz » Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:40 pm

Piratis wrote:If you examine all federations (I am not talking about confederations and such), you will see that the bigger states have more power. Yes, in some issues a special majority of the states is needed, but not in everything.

This is a very basic issue. If you want political equality in everything, this is simply beyond federation and is obviously something that can not be accepted.


I have never insisted on equality in ALL things but what you inist is equality in NOTHING by your insitance that we are a minority not just numericaly but politicaly and in terms of what rights TC as a group should be entitled too in Cyprus. You inist that anything you offer (now) to TC above what rights they have as a minority in Cyprus are not an natural entitlement that they should have by right but a 'concession' from 'benevolent' GCs. This is the problem. What you offer in 'extra' rights for the TC minority in their own land are meaningless when offered on such a basis as above.
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Postby insan » Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:40 pm

Well, maybe you need 30 more years to realize that your pseudo state will never be legalized. I thought you should have figured that already, but I guess you fall in the trap of the Annan.


Trap? You must be joking!

The content of Annan Plan is what both parties demanded for 30 years... The fact is that Turkish side(Mainly the statusquoers and their mainland supporters not Talat and Akinci) manage to get %80 of what they want.

I admitted that A Plan; with some of its aspects, wasn't fair in favour of GCs because of various reasons... That's another issue. The A Plan unfairness does not arise of its idea of political equality of two commuınities...
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:44 pm

The content of Annan Plan is what both parties demanded for 30 years

What "both" sides? One is yours, which is the other one? (i don't think you mean that GC side, right?)

The A Plan unfairness does not arise of its idea of political equality of two commuınities


It partly does (but obviously there are a lot more issues also).

Erolz,
I never said equality on nothing. I was very specific and I said on which matters TCs can have equality.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:55 pm

By the way, it seems very hypocritical when you say that your less than 1/5th minority should have political equality with the majority, and then at the same time you do not recognize the right of the other minorities, which combined have 1/4th your population to have equal political rights as well.

So compared to us you are many, and them compared to you are not enough? Apparently you are using some very creative maths again.
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Postby erolz » Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:40 pm

Piratis wrote:I never said equality on nothing. I was very specific and I said on which matters TCs can have equality.


and equaly specific that we have no right or entitlement to equality in these matters. That if you offer it you offer it on the basis of 'a compromise' on your part, on a basis that 'you have to offer it' (which implies if you did not you would not). Thats the problem. You want me to accept these matter that you today offer equality on are essentialy a 'gift' given under 'duress'. As such they are worthless to me and can and most likely would be taken away on the same basis (they were a gift, we had no right to them, they are inherently illegal and unfair, they were only agreed under duress, etc etc). Well I am sorry but such a basis is just not accpetbale to TC. We have been here before.

If you do not believe we have a RIGHT to these (limited agreed areas) of political equality then do not offer them. Not as a compromise. Not as a gift. Not as a temporary means to a different end. Just do not offer them. If you do believe we have a RIGHT to them, then accept that they represent to a degree and with limits a right of self determination for TC. That they reprsent RIGHTS greater than those of the rights of a minority - even if you must also add that they are less than total rights to self determination.
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