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FEDERATION, CONFEDERATION or TWO-REPUBLICS?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby zan » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:11 am

Then why did Turkey invade Cyprus? As you know no Turkish Cypriot was killed by the coup. Turkish Cypriots had casualties only after the Turkish invasion had started.



I think you are really losing it now!



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Postby serkan » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:38 am

Piratis the Turkish intervention is Cyprus was its right as a guarantear power under the 1960 agreement - nothing illegal about it whatsoever! And about that other stuff about no Turkish Cypriots been killed during the coup what about the previous 11 years was anyone killed then. Just think how many Greek and Turkish lives were saved by the 1974 landings, you should thank Turkey unless your a supporter of Grivas - are you?
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:05 am

I think you are really losing it now!

You are loosing it. I didn't say that no TC was killed before 1974 during the intercommunal conflict. Many TCs and GCs died in that conflict (about the same number). But during the coup in 1974 no TC was killed. Any TC killed in 1974 was killed after the invasion had started.

Piratis the Turkish intervention is Cyprus was its right as a guarantear power under the 1960 agreement - nothing illegal about it whatsoever!

It would be legal if the aim was to restore the order as agreed in the 1960 constitution. Not to occupy Cyprus. Do you want me to show the UN resolution of 1974 calling for the respect of the sovereignty of Cyprus and the withdrawal of all foreign troops again?

And about that other stuff about no Turkish Cypriots been killed during the coup what about the previous 11 years was anyone killed then. Just think how many Greek and Turkish lives were saved by the 1974 landings, you should thank Turkey unless your a supporter of Grivas - are you?

First of all the main intercommunal conflict had ended in 1968. Any incidents beyond that and until the Turkish invasion were sporadic.
The Turkish invasion had killed within days more people that were killed during all the 11 years combined. Not only that but it performed ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people. Not only that, but the violations of human rights continue non stop until today. We should thank Turkey for this crime indeed :roll:
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Postby Viewpoint » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:34 am

So Piratis lets get this clear what you are saying is that the intervention was right but the fact that Turkey has remained so long is wrong. How can you reassure our community that there is nothing to fear about GCs hidden agendas? you cant otherwise they would not be hidden. If this was possible the TCs would be more than willing to return to the "RoC" but years of negotiations ahev proved fruitless and no side is closer to trusting the other than we were in 1974. Has anything changed for you? the same old rehtoric, the same old trying to score points off the other side. Its pathetic and we deserve what we have today partition because we may be more educated today but we are just as ignorant as our forefathers. So in 2006 lets hope the 2 communities wake up to the fact that the 2 sides have no will or desire to reunite, so what Ecevit said is turning out to be true the Cyprus problem was solved in 1974, the rest is just a load of hot air as we will be arguing the same old issues for next zillion years and get absoulutely nowhere.

You keep quoting 200.000 refugees, isnt this figure rather inflated? thought it was more in the region of 150.000 GCs and 60.000 TCs. Do you know what percentage the refugess represent of the each population of the time. Do you know the figures for TCs refugess in 1963? also percentage wise?? might give you an insight into the statistical data you appear to use to apportion blame.
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Postby zan » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:13 pm

No point VP, those figures are tattooed on his arm. :lol: :lol:
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Postby Alexios » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:29 pm

Come on people..Vassos asked a simple question and we managed to turn it into a halabalou about the past again...
On your question Vassos, I believe we are certainly not ready for a unified state, we could have a go at a Federation provided people feel secure about a new Annan type plan, whilst partition is out of the question for many practical reasons.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:35 pm

So Piratis lets get this clear what you are saying is that the intervention was right but the fact that Turkey has remained so long is wrong.


No. What I am saying that if Turkey had intervened in order to restore the constitutional order it would have been legal. However it was clear from the first hours that what Turkey was doing was a full scale invasion that had ethnic cleansing and partition as its aim.

How can you reassure our community that there is nothing to fear about GCs hidden agendas? you cant otherwise they would not be hidden.

There is no such "hidden agenda". Claiming hidden and imaginary agendas is not an excuse for the continuation of crimes committed against us.

If this was possible the TCs would be more than willing to return to the "RoC" but years of negotiations ahev proved fruitless and no side is closer to trusting the other than we were in 1974.

This is because in all these years you have never accepted a solution that would not violate the human rights of 1000s of people.

Has anything changed for you? the same old rehtoric, the same old trying to score points off the other side.

No. The same principles of democracy and human rights. Yes, this has not changed and they will never change.

Its pathetic and we deserve what we have today partition because we may be more educated today but we are just as ignorant as our forefathers.

So you are pathetic and you are just as ignorant as your forefathers, yet you deserve partition that has always been your dream? Sorry but you definitely do not deserve that.



So in 2006 lets hope the 2 communities wake up to the fact that the 2 sides have no will or desire to reunite, so what Ecevit said is turning out to be true the Cyprus problem was solved in 1974, the rest is just a load of hot air as we will be arguing the same old issues for next zillion years and get absoulutely nowhere.

You have no will because your aim is partition. I hope in 2006 you will realize that your dream of partition will never be legalized and the faster you abandon it the better for you.

You keep quoting 200.000 refugees, isnt this figure rather inflated?

The exact number is between 180.000-190.000, not 150.000. However 200.000 and even more would have been the Greek Cypriots living in their homeland today if you had not performed the ethnic cleansing.

Do you know the figures for TCs refugess in 1963? also percentage wise?? might give you an insight into the statistical data you appear to use to apportion blame.

By 1968 most TCs had returned to their homes. Their homes were there, waiting for them. We never claimed them as our own.

You let us go back to our own homes and even if you kept as away for 31 years we will forgive you.
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Postby zan » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:48 pm

Alexios

I think Vasos is getting the best answer he can get here. Piratis is using the same language that I was using a little while ago but he insisted at the time that they were wrong. WE clearly are not ready to live together and the GCs are not willing to share. The movement of thousands of people can only be done in a war situation or if half the island sank into the sea. A coalition government is just too crazy to think of with the examples we have. As the Annan plan has all these things incorporated into it, I think that too is out of the question. It seems that the struggle of the TRNC is set to go on until such a day when an economic precedent is set and the business men decide that the best thing to do is unify.
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Postby Alexios » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:55 pm

I have heard this argument before ie that we should let things be until time has matured (as well as people) so that by themselves they will one day demand unification to take advantage of a bigger market place.Maybe in 200 years the whole world will unify!!!! We simply cannot afford to wait that long simply because by that time we will all be dead:))))
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Postby pg » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:59 pm

Let's look at it with the method of elimination...

Two independent republics: Does anyone really mean that it would be possible to have an independent country of 150,000 people today? What sort of economy would be able to support that administration? It could even not be based on making an income from selling land to tourstis, since the plan would anyway be to use that money to pay compensation to the real owners of the land.

A unitary state: I beleive everyone except the real idealists has dumped that idea. Why would GC like to get involved in all matters related to the TC community anyway.

Concluding: we are stuck with each other which ever way we see it. Based on the recent history everyone would be surprised if there was any burning desire in everyone to bet their future on making the big change and leaving the present relative security behind though.

With regards to federation or confederation I really do not think we need to put a name on it before we need one. Better discuss what goes where, and once we agree to that we should probably be able to also name "it".

I think the question for many is instead - can we really be bothered? Most people are not really... and for them the question is more "what is in it for me". Many others are also more confortable with an utopian future (on both sides) than to swallow their pride and live with something less than utopia.

I think that in order to "sell the solution" everyone needs instead to start projecting the positive images of it, for example, what can we do instead with the money and time we now spend on the military, hiw can we market a true bi-cultural tourist destination, how can the cypriot service industry work towards the Turkish market, how do we better develop the industries like education, energy, telecom, etc, once we are actually good friends with everyone in the region.
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