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THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:26 pm

@ kimon, actually i was hoping to learn more from Big Oz, i have read (re:Ataturk/Kemal) this stuff as well.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby Demonax » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:27 pm

Whether Alevis consider themselves 'Turkish' is not really the issue. It's whether the dominant Sunni political and economic class in Turkey continue to deprive Alevis of their rights as a distinct religious minority and they continue to suffer persecution at the hands of religious fanatics, the Turkish state and its institutions.

What's crucial is Erdogan's policy of ramming his brand of Sunni Islam down the throats of the Turkish people while further aligning Turkey with Sunni Islam as shown in his support for the Syrian rebels, the Muslim brotherhood and other Sunni jihadists.

The sectarian fault lines throughout the Middle East risk finding their way back to Turkey. Both internally and externally. In this sense, kimon is right to draw attention to the fact that Alevis, Kurds and other minorities in Turkey could become a key part of the opposition to the AKP's dogmatic religious agenda.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:14 pm

Tim Drayton wrote: In my experience, the Alevis of Turkey consider themselves to be Turkish ... if anything, they consider their own faith to be closer to true Turkish values.


I have no reason and no intention to doubt any of the two conclusions of your experience. The question, however, stands. Why so intensely persecuted? Is their problem going to develop just like the Kurdish issue? Are the presures against them going to drive them to develop an "ethnic minority" identity? Just as an example: Until comparatively recently, the Turkish Cupriots were just "Muslim Cypriots" or the "Muslim Minority of Cyprus". It didn't take long for them to develop an ethnic minority perception of themselves (just a bit of help and push from the then colonial/British administration of Cyprus).
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:25 pm

stpier wrote:
kimon07 wrote:
stpier wrote:Is this a joke? Alewites in Turkey are concentrated in Central Anatolia....


Alewites did you say? I was referring to the Alevis.

Alawites in Turkey

The exact number of Alawites in Turkey is unknown, but there were 185 000 Alawites in 1970.[66] As Muslims, they are not recorded separately from Sunnis in ID registration. In the 1965 census (the last Turkish census where informants were asked their mother tongue), 180,000 people in the three provinces declared their mother tongue as Arabic. However, Arabic-speaking Sunni and Christian people are also included in this figure.
Alawites traditionally speak the same dialect of Levantine Arabic with Syrian Alawites. Arabic is best preserved in rural communities and Samandağ. Younger people in Çukurova cities and (to a lesser extent) in İskenderun tend to speak Turkish. Turkish spoken by Alawites is distinguished by Alawites and non-Alawites alike with its particular accents and vocabulary. Knowledge of Arabic alphabet is confined to religious leaders and men who had worked or studied in Arab countries.

Answer the above questions......


OK, ok. Cool down. Here is my answer:

Alevis
Alevi density in Turkey

Alevis are the biggest religion minority in Turkey. Nearly 15% - 25% of all Turkish population is in this group. They are mainly Turk but there are significant Kurd and Zaza populations who are Alevi

Alevi density.png



They are mainly Turk ..................END OF DISCUSSION and time for you to shut up.


Whatever you say your Excellency! Sorry to have made you angry. I humbly apologize. Please don't chop my head off. Pleeeease?

Oh but! Why do you slaughter them???
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:39 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:...again, the word Bicommunal, (and now, Bizonal) come to mind. define State, define Nation; define Individual, define Person. obviously if "Turks" make it impossible to demonstrate these qualities in Cyprus, they will sign the Turkish State's death warrant. obviously, as a country, Turkey is not a melting pot, and as it is, it can hardly be called a mosaic. the dismissive behaviour we see from "Turks" is only based on a balance of power which stays the same, of course things do not remain unchanging; (the fifty years of Turkish Foreign Policy; Annan Plan). failure, no solution: split up Cyprus, split up Turkey.


dude, stpier, you van argue about the past, but it is time for new thinking. as a Turk this is very true, because it is the "Turks" which pose the greatest threat to the ideals on which modern Turkey was founded. in a sense, the deep state has failed, and Erdogan has taken its place.

you can seek out all the "Greeks" you want, but please understand that Greeks are not "Greeks", don't generalise, choose wisely, acting like a fanatic, more a bully, makes you no better, only a "Turk"; easy for you to be "Turkish", if Turkish, are you Cypriot?
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby stpier » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:09 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...again, the word Bicommunal, (and now, Bizonal) come to mind. define State, define Nation; define Individual, define Person. obviously if "Turks" make it impossible to demonstrate these qualities in Cyprus, they will sign the Turkish State's death warrant. obviously, as a country, Turkey is not a melting pot, and as it is, it can hardly be called a mosaic. the dismissive behaviour we see from "Turks" is only based on a balance of power which stays the same, of course things do not remain unchanging; (the fifty years of Turkish Foreign Policy; Annan Plan). failure, no solution: split up Cyprus, split up Turkey.


dude, stpier, you van argue about the past, but it is time for new thinking. as a Turk this is very true, because it is the "Turks" which pose the greatest threat to the ideals on which modern Turkey was founded. in a sense, the deep state has failed, and Erdogan has taken its place.

you can seek out all the "Greeks" you want, but please understand that Greeks are not "Greeks", don't generalise, choose wisely, acting like a fanatic, more a bully, makes you no better, only a "Turk"; easy for you to be "Turkish", if Turkish, are you Cypriot?


kimon has written 7 pages of nonsense claiming Alewites were not Turkish. He only backed off when one of you unwillingly accepted they were indeed Turks. We are one, Sunni or Alewite, and we stand together with Turkish Cypriots. Lesson of the thread: Do not spread bullshit if you can't support it with facts.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:37 pm

stpier wrote:kimon has written 7 pages of nonsense claiming Alewites were not Turkish. He only backed off when one of you unwillingly accepted they were indeed Turks. We are one, Sunni or Alewite, and we stand together with Turkish Cypriots. Lesson of the thread: Do not spread bullshit if you can't support it with facts.


Bull shit. I started a thread saying that you are driving the Alevis to a point where they will be your next "Kurdish" problem and you came forward saying they are Turks, which is totally irrelevant. Whether they are or not of Turkish origin, whether they feel OR USED TO feel Turkish or not the question is: What do they feel like today? Why do you butcher them, and mock them and oppress them? That is the question. I asked it many times. Will you answer it or not?

Oh and by the way. The fact that Alevis have high ranking state or government positions doesn't mean a thing. Remember. Ozal was part Kurdish and he was publicly advertising the fact. But that didn't stop the Turkish state from massacring the Kurds and displacing them and evacuating/burning their villages to the ground. Did it?

And lastly and I will not elaborate on this further. The fact that you call the the Alevis Alewites shows how much you disrespect them.

Lesson of the thread: Do not try to reproduce cheap Turkish propaganda in this forum. You are ridiculing yourself.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby stpier » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:51 pm

kimon07 wrote:
Bull shit. I started a thread saying that you are driving the Alevis to a point where they will be your next "Kurdish" problem and you came forward saying they are Turks, which is totally irrelevant. Whether they are or not of Turkish origin, whether they feel OR USED TO feel Turkish or not .



They are Turks :!: Exactly what part of this statement can't you understand? They are Kemalists, they are supporters of TRNC, brothers of Turkish Cypriots and enemies of enosis dreamers.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:12 pm

stpier wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...again, the word Bicommunal, (and now, Bizonal) come to mind. define State, define Nation; define Individual, define Person. obviously if "Turks" make it impossible to demonstrate these qualities in Cyprus, they will sign the Turkish State's death warrant. obviously, as a country, Turkey is not a melting pot, and as it is, it can hardly be called a mosaic. the dismissive behaviour we see from "Turks" is only based on a balance of power which stays the same, of course things do not remain unchanging; (the fifty years of Turkish Foreign Policy; Annan Plan). failure, no solution: split up Cyprus, split up Turkey.


dude, stpier, you van argue about the past, but it is time for new thinking. as a Turk this is very true, because it is the "Turks" which pose the greatest threat to the ideals on which modern Turkey was founded. in a sense, the deep state has failed, and Erdogan has taken its place.

you can seek out all the "Greeks" you want, but please understand that Greeks are not "Greeks", don't generalise, choose wisely, acting like a fanatic, more a bully, makes you no better, only a "Turk"; easy for you to be "Turkish", if Turkish, are you Cypriot?


kimon has written 7 pages of nonsense claiming Alewites were not Turkish. He only backed off when one of you unwillingly accepted they were indeed Turks. We are one, Sunni or Alewite, and we stand together with Turkish Cypriots. Lesson of the thread: Do not spread bullshit if you can't support it with facts.


sorry, by acting like "Greeks" and thinking you are better Persons, you have missed the point.

@kimon, thanks for the excellent voice you bring to your thoughts.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:10 am

stpier wrote:
kimon07 wrote:
Bull shit. I started a thread saying that you are driving the Alevis to a point where they will be your next "Kurdish" problem and you came forward saying they are Turks, which is totally irrelevant. Whether they are or not of Turkish origin, whether they feel OR USED TO feel Turkish or not .



They are Turks :!: Exactly what part of this statement can't you understand? They are Kemalists, they are supporters of TRNC, brothers of Turkish Cypriots and enemies of enosis dreamers.


Same question for the fourth time:

If you consider them to be fellow Turks, WHY on earth have you been massacring them and oppressing them systematically since the beginning of time till recently? And why do you let your thugs in the countryside threatning to burn them and their families in their homes and trying to scare them out of their villages? Why are you about to name a new bridge after the name of one of their most horrible butchers? Why is your PM mocking them, their faith and their worship places? And what sort of "brotherly feelings can the Alevis have towards the Sunni Turks who treat them like that? Why shouldn't they feel more close to the Alawites of Syria (which they do actualy and I will come back on this) instead of you?

To repeat your proposition to me above: Answer these questions or SHUT UP!
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