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THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby stpier » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:38 am

kimon07 wrote:
stpier wrote:
kimon07 wrote:
Bull shit. I started a thread saying that you are driving the Alevis to a point where they will be your next "Kurdish" problem and you came forward saying they are Turks, which is totally irrelevant. Whether they are or not of Turkish origin, whether they feel OR USED TO feel Turkish or not .



They are Turks :!: Exactly what part of this statement can't you understand? They are Kemalists, they are supporters of TRNC, brothers of Turkish Cypriots and enemies of enosis dreamers.


Same question for the fourth time:

If you consider them to be fellow Turks, WHY on earth have you been massacring them and oppressing them systematically since the beginning of time till recently? And why do you let your thugs in the countryside threatning to burn them and their families in their homes and trying to scare them out of their villages? Why are you about to name a new bridge after the name of one of their most horrible butchers? Why is your PM mocking them, their faith and their worship places? And what sort of "brotherly feelings can the Alevis have towards the Sunni Turks who treat them like that? Why shouldn't they feel more close to the Alawites of Syria (which they do actualy and I will come back on this) instead of you?

To repeat your proposition to me above: Answer these questions or SHUT UP!


You still can't accept the fact that they are Turks. 76 million in Turkey + 300.000 in TRNC + 130 million rest of the world. We are the guarantors of TRNC. Not a single stone back.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby B25 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:53 am

stpier wrote:We are the guarantors of TRNC. Not a single stone back.


For now, balance of power is changing, soon the kfc will be dumped like a shitty nappy when it doesn't suit mama. We waited 40 years to date, we can wait some more. In the mean time keep wanking those wet dreams about the 'super power' turkey, ha ha you just gotta laugh at this one. You will get your comeuppance soon.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby DrCyprus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:36 am

B25 wrote:
stpier wrote:We are the guarantors of TRNC. Not a single stone back.


For now, balance of power is changing, soon the kfc will be dumped like a shitty nappy when it doesn't suit mama. We waited 40 years to date, we can wait some more. In the mean time keep wanking those wet dreams about the 'super power' turkey, ha ha you just gotta laugh at this one. You will get your comeuppance soon.


Don't be a fool B25. The new Islamic Turkish empire will obscure the sun with their Kahvenes and Baklava.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:38 am

kimon07 wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote: In my experience, the Alevis of Turkey consider themselves to be Turkish ... if anything, they consider their own faith to be closer to true Turkish values.


I have no reason and no intention to doubt any of the two conclusions of your experience. The question, however, stands. Why so intensely persecuted? Is their problem going to develop just like the Kurdish issue? Are the presures against them going to drive them to develop an "ethnic minority" identity? Just as an example: Until comparatively recently, the Turkish Cupriots were just "Muslim Cypriots" or the "Muslim Minority of Cyprus". It didn't take long for them to develop an ethnic minority perception of themselves (just a bit of help and push from the then colonial/British administration of Cyprus).


The oppression of the Alevis of Anatolia goes a long way back in history, well before a country named Turkey even existed. A seminal moment was the campaign of oppression launched by Selim I, who was the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire from 1512 to 1520. The relevant Wikipedia article argues that this was because it was feared that they would support Iran at a time when the Ottoman Empire was at war with this country:

In 1514, to reduce the chances of attack during his march to Iran, Selim I sent his officials to the province of Rum, in north-central Anatolia, with orders to register by name anyone identified as Qizilbash, including members of the Alevi population. Thousands of the 40,000 registered on the list were massacred, with thousands more arrested.The Sultan, regarding the Qizilibash as heretics, reportedly proclaimed that "the killing of one Shiite had as much otherworldly reward as killing 70 Christians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selim_I


I appreciate that with the PKK having done a deal with the Turkish state and having removed its combatants from Turkey (although you need to be aware that the PKK has given warning that the cease-fire will be off if the Turkish government does not start living up to its side of the deal by 15 October), you feel the need to find a new candidate for the position of the people whom God (who, being Greek, of course supports the Megali Idea) has pre-ordained to rise up and destroy the Turkish state so that Greece can effortlessly march in and reclaim its promised land, but just because you have suddenly stumbled on the Alevis as a suitable new candidate does not mean that the Alevis are new kids on the block.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:17 pm

Well, ladies and gents,

I think the time has come to wrap up this topic. I think that from the ample material posted in here by all participants, anyone can draw his/her conclusions of whether the Alevi issue will/can be the next “Kurdish problem” of Turkey.

But before concluding my posts I will answer two questions asked by stpier.

1. How can the Alevis not be Turkish but be Kemalists and leftists?

2. Are the Sunni and Alevi Turks or “Turks” one and the same in Turkey?

Well, the answers to both are included and analyzed in the two articles-sources below. But before I submit the links to them, I will make two comments of my own.

It is self understood that ALL minority groups in Turkey, many of which are also religious minorities (Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Alevis, Alawites, Syriacs etc) would rather live under a secular/Kemalist regime, than under an Islamic one, which the likes of Erdogan would like/try to impose. Need I explain why? I don’t think so.

In any event, the particular case of the Alevis is analyzed below.

As to the question of, how can the Alevis NOT be Turks if they are leftists, well, apart from laughing hard I would ask. Are the Marxist and leftist PKK members Turks?

Now then, here are the articles I was referring to. I will quote here just some paragraphs from each one:

Alevis and the Turkish State:

………

“The cemetery is the only place where discrimination ends,” says a man
from an Alevi foundation in Eskişehir, although Eskişehir is one of the cities
where least discrimination is reported. These social pressures date old:
Alevis were given different names with deragatory meanings (rejectionist,
irreligious, unbeliever, and red head–Kızılbaş) since the Ottoman times,
because, the Ottoman state perceived Alevis as a threat, fearing that they could
shift their loyalty to the Safavid Empire, whose main religion was Shi’ism.7 The
deeply-rooted prejudices stood time, and as the Sunni Islam remained the officially
recognized belief in the Turkish state, contempt for Alevism continued”

and

……….

“According to the Alevi federations, while the “Alevi Opening” started as a step
towards reconciliation, the process and the end report turned out to be just another futile effort of the State to create “their own” (meaning, loyal) Alevis.


(You hear that stpier?)

Whole article here in pdf

http://www.turkishpolicy.com/article/67 ... nter-2012/

And here in plain text
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=gr

And last but not least, the very famous devotion of Alevis to kemalism and…leftism!

Turkish Alevis: The Missing Voice on Sectarianism and the Syrian Conflict

By admin
Apr 22, 2013 • 6:05 pm No Comments

By Senay Imre
……………………….
“Alevism and Kemal Ataturk’s roads intersected during Ataturk’s efforts to build a secular Turkish state toward the late 1920s. Ataturk’s reformation created new institutions. The Society for the Study of Turkish History was influential in shaping Turkish identity today. The society’s first and foremost sensational work was the Turkish Historical Thesis. The thesis argued that Turks originally lived in Central Asia and had to migrate to China, Europe and the Near East due to famine and drought. Turks were actually the founders of the first civilizations: Sumerians and Hittites in the Near East. Further, Atilla and Ghengis Khan were Turkish warriors, and Anatolia was the land of Turks years before the Ottoman Empire claimed it for itself. Ataturk used this thesis as a tool to build a national identity united under a proud common heritage and separate from the Ottoman identity.

In search of the “model Turk” Turkish Historical Thesis researchers turned to the secular, liberal and democratic Alevis. During their research, ethnologists found the Alevism and Bektashi order in Anatolia. They found a relationship between Alevism and Haci Bektas Veli, and Veli with the first known poet who wrote in Turkic dialect: Ahmet Yesevi. Yesevi lived in Central Asia, primarily in Horasan and Turkistan; the homelands of Turks. As a result, Alevis emerged as the model Turk for the “Turkification” project. They were secular, they had a liberal ideology, they had loose Islamic sensitivity, they were in harmony with the Republic’s perspective and they had the needed historical ties that went back to Central Asia and Anatolia.

Detaching the Turkish identity from its Ottoman cultural and traditional roots was Ataturk’s main objective and the Alevi faith proved instrumental in achieving this goal. However, while Alevis were identified as model Turks and representatives of secularism initially, their position was not static. When Kurdish Alevis protested against the Ankara government, they inadvertently changed the conception of the Alevi identity, causing tension between Alevis and other faiths, such as the Sunni majority. The Dersim Uprising of 1937-1938 turned the Turkish government’s understanding of Alevis upside-down. Alevis became identified with Kurds, many of which were anti-Turkification. (Kurds make up 20 percent of Alevis living in Turkey today.) No longer were all Alevis considered Turks or Turkic, and they began to face extreme hostility, oppression and discrimination.

Dedication to secularism, modernism and the republican ideology influenced many Alevis to take part in the radical leftist movements in Turkey throughout the last 50 years. It could be argued that their current support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime is connected with their deep interest in the leftist ideology.”
...............

Erdogan’s constant Islamic and anti-secular speeches are not helping to defuse the sectarian tension accelerated after the Syrian crisis. The media’s role in this matter also should not be taken for granted. Headlines such as “Alevi officers are massacring the civilians” or “Alevis in Turkey are organizing to fight next to Alevis in Syria” are all serving the same purpose: stirring up sectarian tension. While Alevi leaders are denying any kind of unity against Syrian opposition groups, they don’t hesitate to express that Alawites in Syria needs protection. “Our rituals are different but we have strong spiritual bond between us” says one Alevi leader who remembers the shameful crimes committed against Alevis in Turkey. For Alevis, AKP renewal of sectarian tension brings back memories of the Dersim Massacre in 1937, Malatya Massacres in 1960s and ’70s, the Maras Massacre in 1978, the Corum Massacre in 1980s and the Sivas Massacre in 1993 for Alevis. When remembering all of these painful memories, it seems natural if Alevis empathize and sympathize with a minority group somewhere else.


See full article:

http://thenewcontext.milanoschool.org/t ... -conflict/
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:48 pm

stpier wrote:
kimon07 wrote:
stpier wrote:
kimon07 wrote:
Bull shit. I started a thread saying that you are driving the Alevis to a point where they will be your next "Kurdish" problem and you came forward saying they are Turks, which is totally irrelevant. Whether they are or not of Turkish origin, whether they feel OR USED TO feel Turkish or not .



They are Turks :!: Exactly what part of this statement can't you understand? They are Kemalists, they are supporters of TRNC, brothers of Turkish Cypriots and enemies of enosis dreamers.


Same question for the fourth time:

If you consider them to be fellow Turks, WHY on earth have you been massacring them and oppressing them systematically since the beginning of time till recently? And why do you let your thugs in the countryside threatning to burn them and their families in their homes and trying to scare them out of their villages? Why are you about to name a new bridge after the name of one of their most horrible butchers? Why is your PM mocking them, their faith and their worship places? And what sort of "brotherly feelings can the Alevis have towards the Sunni Turks who treat them like that? Why shouldn't they feel more close to the Alawites of Syria (which they do actualy and I will come back on this) instead of you?

To repeat your proposition to me above: Answer these questions or SHUT UP!


You still can't accept the fact that they are Turks. 76 million in Turkey + 300.000 in TRNC + 130 million rest of the world. We are the guarantors of TRNC. Not a single stone back.


Well, if you keep butchering them at the same rate, soon the total Turkish or "Turkish" population of Turkey will be less than 61,000,000. And then minus 15,000,000 Kurds whom you count as Turks too, that makes us 46,000,000. Carry on with the good work. Now. Concerning the 130 mil rest of the world. Didn't Lordo say 500 mil a few days ago? What is the reason of this rappid vanishing rate? A new type of Influenza epidemic maybe?
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby stpier » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:53 pm

You admitted they were Turks......... You can post a zillion articles now. You lost your case and I heard what I wanted to hear. :) TURKS UNITED against the enemy.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby DrCyprus » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:14 pm

stpier wrote:You admitted they were Turks......... You can post a zillion articles now. You lost your case and I heard what I wanted to hear. :) TURKS UNITED against the enemy.


The Turks were never united. The Ottoman empire was competing with other local Turkic populations throughout its existence. That's why they needed to form the Janissary corps, because they couldn't trust other Turks to be their soldiers.

Putting that aside, the only enemies of Turkey are their own Islamoimperialistic ambitions. In other words, you need a bigger country to put a finger up your self-entitled teenage asses so you can learn your places and learn to get on well with your neighbours.
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:21 pm

stpier wrote:You admitted they were Turks......... You can post a zillion articles now. You lost your case and I heard what I wanted to hear. :) TURKS UNITED against the enemy.


You just keep butchering them. And pray they will not do the same to you soon. Atta boys!
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Re: THE ALEVI OF ANATOLIA

Postby kimon07 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:30 pm

stpier wrote:You admitted they were Turks.........


Re Halili! Is that you re? It MUST be you. Mashallah, be , Mashallah. You haven't changed a fucking bit.
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