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Speculate: What happens if solved?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:28 pm

Mr. Piratis;you are talking about educating new generation that the partition is not the fault of TCs but on the other hand you don't beleive into this.(You are saying "I hope").It seems firstly you need some education before children.


I used to believe it more before I got involved in these forums. Now I am not so sure since it seems to me that many Turkish Cypriots like Erolz (and you?) will not accept anything less than partition (or a disguised one like the Annan plan).

But I believe that this is possible to change, and this is why I said that these changes should happen simultaneously at both communities.

So Greek Cypriots will learn that Turkish Cypriots are not responsible for partition, and at the same time the Turkish Cypriots will be changing their mind that partition should be their aim.
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Postby PEACE » Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:38 pm

Piratis wrote:I used to believe it more before I got involved in these forums. Now I am not so sure since it seems to me that many Turkish Cypriots like Erolz (and you?) will not accept anything less than partition (or a disguised one like the Annan plan).


The solution should be balanced where both side's rights are protected.But rights are not infinite so in order to protect the weak community's rights other community's rights shold be restricted if restriction is needed.If you don't agree than i have nothing to discuss with you. :?
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Postby Piratis » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:28 pm

to protect the weak community's rights


The 100% of all Cypriots human rights will be protected.

Also, as a community you have different language, religion, and culture (is there anything else?) and those will also be 100% protected.

Not a signle right will be taken away from you. The same way you should not demand from us to give up our basic human rights. I think thats fair.
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:57 am

Piratis wrote:
I used to believe it more before I got involved in these forums. Now I am not so sure since it seems to me that many Turkish Cypriots like Erolz (and you?) will not accept anything less than partition (or a disguised one like the Annan plan).


I will not accept a settlement where any protections the TC community are granted against GC domination are based on the idea that they are not rights but 'gifts/concessions'. I will not accept a settlement where our legal status as a community (which you insist must be no more than that of a political minority) conflicts with the 'gifts/concessions' you agree to give us in order to secure a settlement. I have been as clear about this as I know. Why you continue to insist that this means I will not accept anything but partition I do not know.

Essentialy I am prepared to agree with you on just about everything re a settlement, except that the protections given to the TC community are not based on fundamental rights of the TC community, but are in fact only 'concessions /gifts' given to the TC that are in excess of their rights as a community. If I could believe that these protections once given would never be subject to attmepts at change by a GC majority that gave them, then this distinction of on what basis they were given would not matter to me. Given Cyprus's history I can not believe this, and thus the distinction on what basis the protections are given is vital to me.

Anyway as I have said elsewhere I can not in all honesty say I feel continued participation of this nature is of any benefit and neither do I feel able to participate and avoid such 'conflicts', so I will for the time being be retreating to a position of 'watching' rather than participating.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:20 am

Your rights will be the ones that will be written in the constitution. If anybody in the future tries to take away what we agreed would you show him the constitution, or you will tell him: "100 years ago your ancestors said that this was our right"?

If you don't want us to make any compromises, then I have no problem. Right now Turkish Cypriots 1)Have the right to return to Republic of Cyprus and get everything that the constitution gives them, or 2) To create a new constitution where they will have full human and minority rights + community rights for language, culture and religion.

But if you want things like a federal state, and especially one that it will be larger than 18%, how can you claim that such thing is not a compromise from our side? Your "TRNC" was called "Turkish Federated State of Cyprus" before. If it was your right, then it would be just given to you without the need to even ask us.

Now I guess you will tell me that we had a constitution in 1960 and then Makarios tried to change it.
The answers is:
1) The 13 points were just proposals that were sent to Turkish Cypriots + Greece + Turkey.
2) The constitution never changed. Those 13 points were never implemented.
3) If we want to reunite our island then we have to leave the past behind and move ahead within the new security and stability that EU provides and stop using the past as an excuse for partition.

So it would be better if you stopped the hate propaganda of the type "GCs are evil and they want to dominate us", and start thinking of how much better a united Cyprus within EU without the influence of the Turkish military will be.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:46 pm

Heres a copy of an old post of mine. The hate will erase only when there is a fair solution and each and every person starts having his own experiences. If the solution will not be fair the hate will multiply.

I beleive everything is sentimental and comes from the parents. When they see their mothers crying and telling them that the Turks took their homes, killed their parents, raped their friends etc, and they were living like gypsies in the fields with no food and no money, the kids built hate for those who hurt their mothers, relatives or friends.

However when they hear their parents discussing both periods i. e before the 1974 and after you will be astonished how smart they are and get everything right.

The fact is however that the majority of the GC parents talk only of their own sufferring in 1974 and nothing else. The majority of the GCs do know that the TCs suffered before 1974 but don't know how exactly and to what degree. Many of the details are hidden to us, so between a vague idea of the TC suffering and their own self - experienced suffering in 1974 , guess which one is prevailing.
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Postby PEACE » Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:18 pm

Piratis wrote:Not a signle right will be taken away from you. The same way you should not demand from us to give up our basic human rights. I think thats fair.


Good to hear that.Don't forget we are a "community" and we have our own self-determination right.In 1977-1978 both sides agreed on bi-zonal,federal solution and new solution will include bi-zonality,bi-communality and federal model.So don't bother...
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:22 pm

Erol like I said I am not going to continue the discussion of your aunts case.

Erol wrote: Try and understand how events like this help to create a desire for partition in some TC


Partition was always the dream of every TC man and his dog. It did not start as a reaction to the dream of the GCs for Enosis.It started from the very first day they understood their British patrons would abandon the place.Events like the sufferring of your aunt just gave more reasons to the excuse. This partition was always translated as "we want to be SEPARATE from you". After signing of the accession treaty of the RoC to the EU back in 2003, they woke up and said, hey we are losing something here. Someone convinced them they can share with us what we alone have acheived, and at the same time stay separate living in our stolen houses, properties and lands.

Its about time you understand the GCs people are people with dignity and self respect.Its about time you get real.
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Postby insan » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:39 pm

It did not start as a reaction to the dream of the GCs for Enosis.



Are you sure re birader? You are wrong about it? From early 1900s untill 30s TCs hadn't talked about just a single word about Taksim but they always stated that they were against Enosis... In 30s; even the chief editor of the TC daily "Innocent Nation" warned GC community that their Enosis aspiration had been damaging the two communities relations... Of coarse Enosis wasn't the only reason which made TCs to react with "Taksim" but it was the main reason...

Can you say that Enosis was a reaction to TCs Taksim idea?


Please have a visit to www.paseka.org and read N Ganzis rsearch about Taksim and Enosis issues...
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:11 am

Thats what I said re birader. Notice the keyword start . Like you said the taksim dream followed long after the GCs started dreaming of Enosis.The very fact that the taksim dream started so many years (almost 50 years?) after the Enosis dream proves that it was not so much related with Enosis per se, but to the fact that the British were leaving. The Tcs via the British divide and rule policy had the British on their side and a lot of privilages in that administration. Thus even if there was no Enosis dream, the mere fact that the British would leave and abandon them inside a numerical majority was enough for the TCs to at least demand "we want to live separate from them". This personal opinion of mine is further supported by what is going on today i.e

Although today 99% of the GCs don't even remember Enosis, the TCs got stuck to their taksim idea, up until 2003 whereas from then onwards their taksim dream took the disguise form of "together and separate". Together and separate can’t be, especially if that separate would mean sacrificing the most basic human rights of the GCs, and donating the TCs and the Settlers our stolen homes and lands.
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