Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

GiG you just prove the truth of my assertion that any attempt at rational discussion with you is pointless.

Those are your figures so let's go with them ....

Just more pathetic attempts to try and prove that 2+2 =7. There are not ONLY 6 men involved in bird trapping in the SBA areas - are you really that fucking stupid. Do the maths properly. In a SINGLE night on a SINGLE site 4-6 men can trap 3000 or MORE birds. Do you have any idea how many such sites there are in the SBA areas ? Any idea how many 'teams' of 4-6 men may be working on the same night ? No of course you do not and neither do you care, for truth, reality these are of no interest to you. Distortion, denial and propaganda are the only interests you have going on your posts here.

You also said these birds were trapped in firing ranges! Birds do not settle in such noisy places (as I know from the bareness of the Akamas when the Brits did their military exercises there).

You clearly know shit. From http://www.coe.int/t/dg4/cultureheritag ... 202013.pdf

The police managed to seize from the Xylofagou firing range a total of 237 metal or concrete foundation bases that support poles which in turn support the nets, 225 metal poles, three batteries, 405 metres of cable, 126 mats, six speakers and five nets.

No there is no illegal bird trapping activity in SBA firing ranges, cause the all mighty, all knowing, infallible GiG says so. Real hard factual truth backed up by credible evidence of the highest orders means squat in the face of the 'oracles' pronouncements- apparently. In reality you know jack shit about this issue, so clearly so with your every post. You are however an expert in bullshit, propaganda, denial and diversion.

- And you're telling me this is a regular ongoing situation and several thousand soldiers and some hundred military police parading round the Bases are not going to spot these people and get rid of them from their highly guarded sites?

FFS does ANYTHING penetrate your thick dripping prejudice ? Just fucking LOOK at the sovereign base areas, and as you are apparently to lazy to get off your fat ass to do so, just fucking use google maps. The SBA, apart from a tiny fraction of their total area, are NOT 'highly guarded sites' with 'thousands of troops parading around'. FFS can you not understand this simple FACT ???

Absurd!

Indeed you are.

Exactly - because the amount of illegal trapping that still goes on (and has to be stopped, I've never denied that) does not produce any real threat to the birds as it is much much less than it has been over thousands of years without threat.

Ignorance piled on ignorance. There is not a SINGLE expert in this field ANYWHERE in the world that would support your argument that the degree of damage today from illegal bird trapping is less than it was for thousands of previous years. It just made up bullshit with no basis in reality or fact and unsupported and unsupportable by ANY evidence anywhere. Yet you assert this total bollocks as fact and use it as the basis for your argument. Absurd does not even begin to describe the sheer scale of the stupidity and ignorance about this issue you show in the above statement.

Sorry, maybe you've moved since you wrote this:

I do part own under TRNC laws by inhertance a house built on land in North Cyprus that was GC pre 74 (not saying its not still GC owned btw).

I deal in truth and honesty GiG unlike yourself. Your claim was I lived in a GC owned home. Meaning the home I live in used to be lived in by GC before 1974. This is not true. I live in a home built on land that pre 74 was never a home for any Cypriot of any kind but was grazing land for goats. Just typical bullshit distortion from you GiG. Making out I live in a home that was previously a home for a GC family pre 74, whilst not true (and you know its not true) is much better propaganda for you than the actual truth, so why bother with the actual truth ?

It is an environmental issue as I have also stated. Large areas of habitat being destroyed! However, it is YOU who is politicizing it by blaming the RoC for not doing enough on the frigging British Bases - which it cannot control properly anyway! The RoC has made trapping illegal. It acts when and if the laws are broken.

I have never criticised the RoC over this issue in isolation. I have always referred to CYPRIOTS in my criticisms never the RoC alone. Nor have I blamed them over not doing enough on the SBA areas. these are just fantasies in your head. What I have said repeatedly, because it is true, is there is NO SOLUTION to this issue from legislation and police raids alone (in the RoC, in the SBA's or in the north). The solution lies in a change of attitude amongst Cypriots in general. Yet if you are any guide to the chances of such a change in attitudes then we are doomed, for you show clearly you would rather make up total bullshit and present it as fact than have to change your attitude on this issue.

You said you had to rejoin CF because my *positive* posts on Cyprus annoy you. Why? Cyprus is NOT any worse than anywhere else and it is far better than most places!

Get the fuck over yourself GiG! Where did I say I re-joined CF because of YOUR positive posts ? I never said it. Come on show me WHERE I said that. That you can perceive I said such a thing is just yet more evidence of your astounding arrogance and misplaced sense of self importance.

As I started this thread' trying to have a rational discussion with you GiG is pointless' and so clearly proven so in this thread (and hundreds of others), when you simply make things up and present it as fact, without any evidence what so ever. Be it made up bullshit that illegal trapping does no material damage to endangered species or made up bullshit like 'I had to re-join CF because of your positive posts'. When you just pluck fantasy from thin air and present it as fact, despite all evidence to the contrary and no evidence in support of your bullshit, then clearly rational debate is beyond possibility.

Why do you not try stopping just making up bullshit and actual do some READING of credible sources from credible people who specialise in the subject and actually know what they are talking about with any semblance of an open mind ? You do not do this because you have no interest in the truth or the reality or the issue itself. Your only interest is your propaganda and that needs so much less effort doesn't it GiG ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

There are not ONLY 6 men involved in bird trapping in the SBA areas - ... Any idea how many 'teams' of 4-6 men may be working on the same night ?

So, there are many. That was exactly my point which proved how absurd what you said was. Why are soooo many people working sooo many hours not spotted? That's why your claims are absurd.

Your storyline is breaking up.

As for living on GC land that you have built a house on, isn't that the same as the Orams?

Get the fuck over yourself GiG! Where did I say I re-joined CF because of YOUR positive posts ? I never said it. Come on show me WHERE I said that.

Perhaps here ...

- but then from my memories of participation on these forums from 10 years ago and 6 years ago and 3 years ago, GIG posting plain rubbish of monumental proportion in order to exonerate (greek) Cypriots of any blame or culpability for anything and everything is nothing new to me. That does not mean I will not pop in now again to highlight such behavior as and when I feel inclined to do so.

[repulsewarrior]

...still wondering, where are the best environments on the island for these birds?

[erolz66]

...still wondering, where are the best environments on the island for these birds?

I am not sure I understand the question ? 'These birds' represent up to 200 different species of migratory birds that pass through Cyprus biannually. Cyprus is the last site of abundance before crossing 100's and hundreds of miles of desert in North Africa on the migration outwards and the first site of abundance on the return journey. They will 'fatten up' for this journey in Cyprus (or recover in Cyprus on the return). Typically 'scrub land' and low intensity orchards and some low intensity farmland is the ideal environments for this but it does vary from species to species as well.

[erolz66]

So, there are many. That was exactly my point which proved how absurd what you said was. Why are soooo many people working sooo many hours not spotted? That's why your claims are absurd.

Your storyline is breaking up.

That 100,000 of thousands and even millions of birds are killed as a result of illegal bird trapping in the SBA's in Cyprus is not 'my storyline'. It is the estimates from credible professional organisations that have been and continue to survey these areas year in and year out, using proven scientific methods. Organisations like Birdlife Cyprus, Game Fund, Birdlife international the RSPB and many more besides. The evidence to support this claim of such reports from such organisations is LEGION. I can give you literally 100's of links that cite these kinds of numbers from these kinds of organisations.
Then on the 'other side' - we have your 'storyline', that such numbers are physically impossible in regards to the SBA, based on nothing but your own assertion backed up by not a SINGLE credible link to support it and based on totally spurious and false premises like the SBA are 'the most heavily guarded areas in the RoC' crawling with thousands of troops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25433008 BBC News report from 19th December 2013

"UK sovereign base areas (SBAs) in Cyprus have become illegal bird-trapping "hotspots", according to research. "These take place on the two British SBAs in Cyprus, at Akrotiri and Dhekelia, sites covering about 100 sq miles that are British sovereign territory and within which the UK maintains a permanent military presence."

http://cyprus-mail.com/2013/12/20/this- ... d-at-1-5m/ Cyprus Mail report from 20th December 2013

"Andreas Pitsillides, who is chief inspector of the SBA police in Dhekelia, told the BBC that when his team carried out raids on these operations, they would often find between five and ten 20m-long mist nets in one location.
“[The trappers] have become professionals,” Pitsillides told the BBC."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxyr_wmEG3Q BFS news report from 2012

and I could go on and on and on presenting the evidence that illegal bird trapping in the SBA DOES go on, it scale IS huge. Yet none of this makes any difference to you. You will continue to try and argue that its not even physically possible for such things to take place based on NO presented evidence what so ever.

Do you have ANY idea how stupid this makes you look GiG ?

As for living on GC land that you have built a house on, isn't that the same as the Orams?

Yet more distortion GiG. I did not build this house. My father that I inherited the house from did not build it either for that matter. Still why bother with accuracy and truth when lies and bullshit serve your propaganda agenda so much the better.

Get the fuck over yourself GiG! Where did I say I re-joined CF because of YOUR positive posts ? I never said it. Come on show me WHERE I said that.

Perhaps here ...

- but then from my memories of participation on these forums from 10 years ago and 6 years ago and 3 years ago, GIG posting plain rubbish of monumental proportion in order to exonerate (greek) Cypriots of any blame or culpability for anything and everything is nothing new to me. That does not mean I will not pop in now again to highlight such behavior as and when I feel inclined to do so.

[/quote]

So from my text above you interpret that as saying 'I HAD to return to CF because YOUR positive posts annoyed me' and you wonder why I think you display a huge degree of arrogance and misplaced self importance ?

In truth GiG you are actually WORSE than those involved in illegal bird trapping in Cyprus. For at least those involved have some 'reason' for their activity - namely making money. Yet you would rather lie, distort and distract from the issue for no other reason than your own propaganda needs and in the process effectively defend and protect these illegal bird trappers from the thing they fear the most, which is a shift in public opinion that could and would lead to a massive curtailment of their activities and profits. You attitude and behaviour in these threads on this issue physically disgust me.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Re-quoting the article we have been discussing doesn't suddenly rub out the nonsense you've been suggesting. So again we see your concern about birds is more about blaming the RoC and its people and less about what is best to do and do-able under the constraints imposed on the RoC by the British and Turkish Armies.

OK, so neither you nor your father built "this house". The Orams didn't personally build the house on GC-owned land either - their builders did. That doesn't make them any less guilty.

Since this is merely a discussion, your actual personal circumstances don't matter other than when some things don't make sense. You see, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot be a "Cypriot", as you claim, but believe in "inheritance" laws of the "TRNC". That just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, as for the rest, and your reasons for popping back (fine, since you have a lot to say), it was there in text; and trying to soften your words now when caught out is an irrelevancy since I have found that nothing you state can be restated back to you without you producing a cornucopia of "ifs and buts."

(Anyway, I've had some bad news so I need to stop posting for a while.
Happy Holidays and don't eat too many .... turkey birds. )

[erolz66]

Re-quoting the article we have been discussing doesn't suddenly rub out the nonsense you've been suggesting.

The 'nonsense' I have been suggesting is back up hard evidence from credible sources. Countless such sources exit. On the other hand the 'nonsense' you have suggested is back up by fuck all. Nonsense like it is not physically possible that 1.5 million birds in a year are killed as a result of illegal bird trapping in the SBA in Cyprus. Nonsense like 'you could not trap birds on firing ranges'. Nonsense like the SBA areas are sealed highly guarded areas crawling with troops and SBA police. Nonsense like illegal bird trapping today does less damage to endangered species that it did for previous thousands of years. None of these bullshit lines by you are supported by any evidence whats so ever.

So again we see your concern about birds is more about blaming the RoC and its people and less about what is best to do and do-able under the constraints imposed on the RoC by the British and Turkish Armies.

I do not blame the RoC - I blame Cypriot indifference be that TC or GC indifference. As bad as indifference is I even more blame YOU as an individual for you are not just indifferent to the issue and the real material damage done you actively try and construct (all be it pathetically) lies and distractions and denials about the issue because of your inability to see anything other than your propaganda agenda and its needs.

OK, so neither you nor your father built "this house". The Orams didn't personally build the house on GC-owned land either - their builders did. That doesn't make them any less guilty.

Your first lie - that I live in a house that pre 74 was a home to GC. A blatant lie. Then you move to
Your second lie - that I had a house built on GC land. Again not true just a blatant lie.

Since this is merely a discussion, your actual personal circumstances don't matter other than when some things don't make sense. You see, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot be a "Cypriot", as you claim, but believe in "inheritance" laws of the "TRNC". That just doesn't make sense.

I am a Cypriot regardless of what you believe and how much you resent that fact. I am a Cypriot under RoC law and in my heart. I do not 'believe' in TRNC inheritance law. I gave years ago a frank and honest description of my personal circumstances which you have chosen to drag up and use here in this thread out of context to try and support your blatant lies and distortions and distractions. Lies like I live ın a GC home. Lies like I built or had built a house on GC land. Lies like I 'believe' in TRNC inheritance laws.

Anyway, as for the rest, and your reasons for popping back (fine, since you have a lot to say), it was there in text; and trying to soften your words now when caught out is an irrelevancy since I have found that nothing you state can be restated back to you without you producing a cornucopia of "ifs and buts."

You make a claim that I HAD to come back to CF because I was annoyed by your positive posts about Cyprus and then present a block of text from me that says no such thing at all as your 'proof' and you then claim I have been 'caught out'. Are you fucking insane ?

[miltiades]

As I was getting into my car to drive away, a car pulled up next to me and an elderly couple of Cypriots got out carrying bags. The lady approached me and asked if I was the one that put the food for the cats, getting ready to rebuff her as well, I listened as she politely asked if next time I come with food I put it on the pavements as to avoid having cats in the concourse where visiting cars might run them over.

Of course I said, I didn't think of this.

I watched as she and her man begun feeding the cats from the contents of their bags. I approached and told her that what she was doing was extremely kind, thank you she said, we have been doing this for over 20 years since we came back to Cyprus from the UK....

They originated from the Famagusta region.

Visited the cemetery in Ayios Athanasios this morning, carrying left overs from last evenings dinner.

I begun to spread the food on the pavement this time making sure that the little ones had their share.

Paid my respects to my late wife buried in the cemetery and made my way back to my car.

The elderly couple I met the last time were busy watering and providing food for the cats.

They recognize me instantly and begun chatting away.

On my last visit we exchanged a few words and I learned that they had originated from Famagusta but left Cyprus in mid seventies for the UK returning to Cyprus some 20 years ago. I was talking to the old boy when his mobile phone rung, Hello he said, we will be home soon, how is everything!! Nothing extraordinary about this conversation apart from the fact that the old boy spoke in fluent well educated English !!

Your English is very good I said, well of course it is, he responded in English, I'm English old boy !!!

I was taken aback as he spoke in perfect Cypriot without a trace of an accent. Alan his name, Ivy his G/C wife.

He came to Cyprus in 1955 as a soldier in the British army, met Ivy and married her in 1958.Adores Cyprus and would not wish to live anywhere else.

We talked at length and they told me that they visit the cats on Wednesdays and Sundays bringing cat food and water.

We exchanged festive wishes promising to meet them again on Xmas day at the same place.

[The subaltern]

As luck would have it, the bird trapping “hot spots” i.e. the British bases, cropped up yet again thanks to BirdLife Cyprus monitoring bird-trapping operations since 2002!!
As reported, 19/12/13, by Victoria Gills BBC News reporter, trapping while widespread “some of the largest operations were in UK SOIL” ie Akrotiry and Dhekelia, where “organised criminal gangs create “labyrinth” of acacia trees irrigating the plantations and cutting corridors through them in order to set up long mist nets” with “recordings of bird songs”. All this is going on under the British authority’s nose, where illegal immigrants employed by “criminal gangs”, GC of course, irrigating and pruning the plantations, with recordings of bird songs in the background, while the British hounds smelled nothing, saw nothing or heard nothing as though they were operating somewhere in the Amazon forest! Come on! Pull the other one. Nothing though is said about birds killed by strikes on Akrotiri’s spying masts.
Song birds, according to the report, are “killed and sold to restaurants for the illegal but widely available Cypriot delicacy ambelopoulia” Please note! Illegal and widely available! How come the birds are so widely available since they are illegal? Unless the whole Cypriot society is criminal! That’s what is implied here. The Cyprus government ought to protest.
And the report continues: “A dozen birds can fetch up to 80 euros”!! This is a recycled old statement you can find all over the place since 2000. However, in this difficult economic climate people can effort to pay 80 euros for a dozen birds!!!
That’s of course for foreign consumption…I mean the story not the birds.
Yet ambelopoulia are caught in their millions as reported by BirdLife, CABS and others so many times before. And as any one with basic economics knowledge will know, the price of a product depends on its demand and its supply. 80 euros for 12 birds!! Either there are not many ambelopoulia caught to satisfy the demand, so the price goes up, or the demand for the birds is so large that exceeds the supply thus driving the price up to 80 euros a dozen!!! What’s behind this ridiculous assertion?
And here is your answer: BirdLife Cyprus “was calling on the ministry of defence (MOD) to do more to suckle illegal bird trapping on ITS LAND”!!
The MOD obliged. “A spokesperson from the MOD said it already took the issue “extremely seriously” etc.
It is very obvious, with out going into further analysis of the text, this is a story designed by bird champions with a clear purpose of denigrating the Cyprus people and society. They are operating, as it has been mentioned before in my last post, not as an amateur organization interested in birds, but as a versed professional body steeped in Western European values and by appealing to the higher moral authority of Britain demand the persecution of the Cypriot “criminals” operating in HER LANDS. So if and when Britain decides to act to save the birds is going to act not as a bully but as the birds’ guardian with the superior moral authority that grants her the right to do so. And by acting does not only protects the birds, but brings civilization and law and order to the barbarous natives; especially when barbarity and lawlessness is taking place in her OWN LANDS. Have you heard this one before? Of course you have; this is the old justification for colonialism; to bring civilization to the natives. Things have not changed much have they? Looking at the birds from this angle the possibilities for Britain in interfering in the Cypriot internal affairs are endless. We may soon have the ambelopoulia war. Remember the cod war, the opium war etc?
In fact the calls for Britain to act on behalf of the birds are also trumpeted here in Cyprus through the Cyprus Mail’s interne side. Read the readers comments on her web site; in fact they do not miss an opportunity to displaying their hatred to Cyprus whenever the opportunity arises; which is more or less on a daily basis.
As I have mentioned before at my previous post bird lobbies are not armatures; they are professionals capable of manufacturing “truth” or lie, to suit Western interests and to provide pretexts for the West to act.
Far fetched analysis? Not in my opinion. I though hope I am wrong. Cypriots be ware!
PS. Capitals are my own for emphasis.

[erolz66]

As I have mentioned before at my previous post bird lobbies are not armatures; they are professionals capable of manufacturing “truth” or lie, to suit Western interests and to provide pretexts for the West to act.

Possibility one - there is widespread illegal bird trapping in Cyprus that does real material damage to a number of endangered species.

Possibility two - its all lies made up by organisations like birdlife Cyprus (set up and run by Cypriots by the way), RSPCA, NABU, CABS and countless others because they hate Cypriots and hope to use such lies as a means to turn Cyprus back into a colony.