Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Please, don't ignore this:

THE UK's plans to erect a 500,000-watt radio mast at its military listening base in Cyprus have been sharply rebuked by Green MEPs, who fear that it will damage the environment and pose a health risk.

The antenna will be sited on a planned nature reserve and the Greens claim its electromagnetic emissions could affect ecosystems in the area, which lies on an important migration route for many species of birds.

Cyprus, a front runner in the EU enlargement talks, is calling for the wetlands near the Royal Air Force base at Akrotiri to be listed as 'Ramsar' site, indicating its high conservation value.

Green group chief Monica Frassoni said the mast should not be constructed before a study assessing its environmental impact is completed. "Last year we asked the British government to stop the installation of more antennae in Akrotiri but obviously they have not been listening," she said.

London insists the antenna is not dangerous. Akrotiri is one of two 'sovereign bases' which the British Army retains in Cyprus. Its Royal Signals listening post is used to spy on countries such as Iraq and Iran.

http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/im ... 45241.aspx

It's not a real big issue!

By now they would know the impact it has caused since 2002.

It is also irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Paphitis]

It appears some St Francis’s posting here who speak on behalf of the animals and birds and yet they have not managed to do their miracle in order to save them from the “caring” western man. To save them that is, from his cats, his chemicals, his deforestations and destruction of bird habitat, his intensive agricultural practices, acquiring more and more land for cultivation by destroying hedges and wetlands, his monoculture, his replanting of trees unsare global and suitable for birds but suitable for commercial exploitation, his hunting etc, not forgetting of course the murderous technologies that take their toll on the innocent birds.

This topic has nothing to do with the "caring Western Man". Environmental Issues like this are global and environmentalists are active everywhere trying to make a difference as they are in Cyprus as well with rerspect to illegal Bird Trapping.

Somehow his practices have no effect on the species, only the trappers practices have! and ought to be punished. So they sent their armies of bird protectors armed with their superior moral values to do battle with the trappers; forgetting of course that this man is practising a tradition for over 3000 years, much more prevalent than now, that had no detrimental effect on the species until they have decided that it has.

No one made any such claim other than Bird Trapping is indiscriminate and it is stressing bird life populations across the island and that some of the species that are caught are in fact under threat or endangered.

And all hell brakes loose! The Noah’s from the West, where the ark in their land is like a sieve full of holes and about to sink, appeared in order to save the birds and animals from the Cypriot deluge.
Millions of birds killed! 80 Euros a dozen! Swallowed whole by the hungry boas of Cyprus! With their Viagra qualities! Where the unemployed found a job as trappers! Illegal! Illegal they shout while in their own lands the killing continues unabated. Legally of course! When the problem becomes acute they do not hesitate to declare: Let’s do a study to find out the reasons!

What utter crap!

The minor Noahs, home grown of course declare; never mind what’s going on elsewhere lets behave correctly ourselves. Let’s save the birds. The only problem though is that the trappers are not operating in a vacuum and neither are the birds immune to what’s happening elsewhere.

no species is immune from man's activities. It still does not mean that illegal Bird Trappers and a get out of jail free card because other activities such as land clearing etc.

In fact as things go, very soon hunting will be made totally illegal in Cyprus under pressure of course from the bird champions, yet legal in their own countries. There is a good reason for it, “Game”, to use the euphemistic Anglo-Saxon term, in Cyprus it is mostly migratory birds and since they are drastically reduced in number or are at risk as a result of what’s happening elsewhere; the demand will be, banning hunting in Cyprus since it kills endangered species. In fact the bird champions call hunting in Cyprus, “shooting” and “hunting” is done in their own lands.

No hunting will not be made illegal. Hunting is not indiscriminate, and people who engage in the sport only hunt for certain species within season. It is controlled and regulated with no effect on any threatened bird species.

Birds in effect are put under western protection. The skies have been colonised!

No they are put under CYPRIOT protection!

And ourselves in a fit of stupidity we indulge in self flagellation in order to demonstrate to our “friends” how much we agree with their concerns, forgetting of course that we are agreeing with the people who created the problem in the first place.
Like “The friends of the Ear (Φίλοι της γης) undersigning reports by CABS full of malice against the Cypriot people and society. (See field report 23 Sept- 2 Oct 2011 especially pages 23, 24, 25 & 26) If someone wishes to criticise it should be done through a Cypriot perspective otherwise you are subscribing to the propaganda and demonisation. By agreeing with the foreign perspective we perpetuate their sense of self righteousness, and us in need of a master or a driver like the Cypriot ox on the plough.

What utter bullshit!

However their actions in Cyprus do not help the birds at all. In fact they have created more problems than would have otherwise been the case. If the trappers were to be left alone, the tradition would have faded away in few years time. There are many other reasons why their interference is detrimental not only for the birds but to the Cypriot society as well.

Conservationists have been doing some great work against Bird Trapping. In fact, there constant lobbying has resulted in the activity being outlawed within the RoC and SBA Areas.

This is a great achievement.

Actually the trappers ought to ask the European bird champions to pay compensation for bird depletion and for trying to deprive them of their 3000 year old tradition.

Why don't they ask the CYPRIOT Bird Lovers and seek compensation from them since it is THEIR cause?

[Cap]

You all make good points.

Yes, CY has a problem.(Which country doesn't?)
And yes, 'Western' foreigners perpetuate and magnify it via ignorance, they truly believe that where they come from is vastly superior.
Some British are guilty of this. We've seen it time and time again.
Point out flaws in their societies and they're quick to blame the 'county', the 'pakis', 'labour' , the 'BNP', 'immigrants'.
It's never a 'British' problem, no, it's always narrowed down to a specific offending party.
A bad thing happens in CY and it's always generalized as the 'Cypriots' or 'Cyprus'.

[The subaltern]

It appears that no amount of evidence is likely to influence or at least prompt some of the Noahs to question their held beliefs put in their heads in a 30 year propaganda campaign by the bird champions regarding bird trapping in Cyprus.

In this sense the bird champions have been successful at a cost though; as they wedge war against the trappers, and since “in war, truth is the first casualty”, (Aeschylus) they have not hesitated in killing the truth and with it the unnecessary killing of untold numbers of birds. Think about it; would the trappers behaved differently if they were not persecuted? To put it simpler, would you respond positively to someone who beats you up or to someone who talks to you? Our friends cannot get away from their colonialist behaviour.

The vilification of the trappers is their main objective and no amount of effort is too much and neither disinformation is too little in order to achieve their objective.

Numbers, tables, reports and the like are produced in order to “prove” the correlation between bird trapping and bird depletion. Millions of birds are caught we hear. Huge amounts of birds caught yet the price of ambelopoulia does not come down! It seems the laws of economics do not apply in Cyprus unless ambelopoulia eating is addictive that prompts someone to spend 80 euros for 12 little birds the equivalent of the price of 2 lambs!! Or every person in Cyprus, from suckling babies to toothless grandmothers is in love with ambelopoulia thus driving the price higher. Something is not quite right; someone is fibbing. The question is who can it be?

Tables are compiled with birds caught on lime sticks AND mist nets aimed at people with no idea of how lime sticks or mist nets work. Mist nets are indiscriminate while lime sticks are set for “ambelopoulia” on trees where the birds go to feed except during the first week of their arrival to Cyprus.

They are caught during the morning feeding time. Of course no one explained what ablelopoulia are. They are not owls, bee eaters, sky larks, kingfishers, chukars, short-ear owls, pallid harriers, kestrels etc what are they then? You have not been told. Some of the birds mentioned here and many-many others mentioned in the lists are not even hunted by the trappers (a) because they are not eaten in Cyprus (b) there are not many worth their while to trap and (c) if we believe the propaganda that ambelopoulia are sold at 80 euros per dozen, why should a trappers go trapping a bird not in demand, very few in number and a lot not even eatable; unless the trappers do not know what they are doing or they do it in order to irate the bird champions. Quite a number of birds on the lists are so rare in Cyprus that the likelihood of one been caught is nil.


Further, the lists published are misleading. “Species affected by trapping with limesticks and mistnets and their conservation status” compiled by CABS and Cyprus friends of the earth dated April 2010 contains 122 species trapped SINCE 1957.

Another report by BirdLife Cyprus “Update on illegal bird trapping activity in Cyprus” covering autumn 2012 and published December 2012, lists 152 bird species trapped, this time SINCE 1968!! It contains 30 species more than the April 2010 report! Perhaps the 30 extra species included in the 2012 were escaping from the European puss, the farming methods, pesticides etc.

However, no distinction is made between mistnet and limesticks trapping and neither number of birds trapped by either or both. You can of course, if you like, input your own numbers for each spices from the millions trapped.
The lists contained birds that do not even frequent trees where the limesticks are set; like skylarks, swallows, martins etc.

As the lists are presented, with no numbers of birds trapped etc, one cannot assess the impact each method of trapping has on the species. While in the conservation status column in the tables, the birds are identified by colour coding whether they are “declining”, “depleted”, “rare” etc; no reasons are given as to why their status is what it is, in order to know where to direct our attention or rather the bird champions attention. Much more can be said about the misleading information put out by the reports; their purpose is not to give factual information in order to form a balanced opinion, but to create impressions for propaganda purposes.

Creating scapegoats does not only ease ones guilt but justifies ones actions.
Telling the truth of course will render their mission superfluous and their self- righteousness laughable.

However, if the bird champions are really interested in saving the birds, they have to start negotiating rather than imposing their will on others.

PS This should be read in conduction with my other posts on the subject.

None of my post should be taken as an attack on the birds but on the hypocrisy and cultural imperialism of the so called “civilised west”.

[erolz66]

To put it simpler, would you respond positively to someone who beats you up or to someone who talks to you? Our friends cannot get away from their colonialist behaviour.

Yeah and we should not criminalise drug dealers, rapists, thieves or anyone else either, we should just talk to them because to not do so would be 'colonialist'.

Huge amounts of birds caught yet the price of ambelopoulia does not come down! It seems the laws of economics do not apply in Cyprus unless ambelopoulia eating is addictive that prompts someone to spend 80 euros for 12 little birds the equivalent of the price of 2 lambs!! Or every person in Cyprus, from suckling babies to toothless grandmothers is in love with ambelopoulia thus driving the price higher. Something is not quite right; someone is fibbing. The question is who can it be?

Someone is 'fibbing' and it clearly is you. Do you know how much the price of say an eighth of skunk (another illegal product) has changed in London over the last 20 years ? Not at all is the answer. I guess that must mean according to your logic that there can not therefore be much demand or supply for such a product and we should stop being so 'colonialist' towards drug dealers and instead try talking to them.

Tables are compiled with birds caught on lime sticks AND mist nets aimed at people with no idea of how lime sticks or mist nets work.

Pretty rich coming from someone that claims that mist nets catch butterflies ! You display your own ignorance of how mist nets work and then decry how others have no idea how lime sticks or mist nets work !

Mist nets are indiscriminate while lime sticks are set for “ambelopoulia” on trees where the birds go to feed except during the first week of their arrival to Cyprus.

A clearer example of your own lies and murdering of the truth would be hard to find. Please explain how you ensure a lime stick only traps black caps and no other species. The idea that 'time and location' of placing a lime stick ensure that it traps only a single species of bird is just absurd nonsense and you do not need to be any sort of expert to see that the claim is absurd.

Some of the birds mentioned here and many-many others mentioned in the lists are not even hunted by the trappers (a) because they are not eaten in Cyprus (b) there are not many worth their while to trap and (c) if we believe the propaganda that ambelopoulia are sold at 80 euros per dozen, why should a trappers go trapping a bird not in demand, very few in number and a lot not even eatable; unless the trappers do not know what they are doing or they do it in order to irate the bird champions.

You accept that mist nets are indiscriminate (though you persist in the BS lie that lime sticks are not) and then you ask why would trappers bother to trap birds that do not have a commercial value. Can you really not see the stupidity here ? You KNOW why trappers trap birds that have no commercial value. It is because the methods they use to trap the ones that do have commercial value are INDISCIMINATE. They can not catch the ones that have value WITHOUT catching the others as well.

Quite a number of birds on the lists are so rare in Cyprus that the likelihood of one been caught is nil.

Talk about 'sophistry'. You are saying the more rare a bird is the less we should be concerned of the dangers to it from illegal trapping. Well you can apply the same 'sophistry' to anything that endangers species that are close to extinction, including all those 'western' evils you love to mention, and it would still be a BS argument. Habitat destruction ? Well those birds that are close to extinction are so few already that the chances of them being affected by further habitat destruction is nil or next to nil, so lets not worry about it. See the BS now ?

Further, the lists published are misleading. “Species affected by trapping with limesticks and mistnets and their conservation status” compiled by CABS and Cyprus friends of the earth dated April 2010 contains 122 species trapped SINCE 1957.

Another report by BirdLife Cyprus “Update on illegal bird trapping activity in Cyprus” covering autumn 2012 and published December 2012, lists 152 bird species trapped, this time SINCE 1968!! It contains 30 species more than the April 2010 report! Perhaps the 30 extra species included in the 2012 were escaping from the European puss, the farming methods, pesticides etc.

You try and use the fact that two different reports from different organisations have a variation in their number as proof that they must be lying. Well I can tell you what would be a much more indicative that there was conspiracies of intentful lies distortions across such organisations would be if two different reports from two different organisations had exactly the same figures.

However, no distinction is made between mistnet and limesticks trapping and neither number of birds trapped by either or both.

And over and over you repeat your lies. The fact that if you google for illegal bird trapping Cyprus report, you can find report after report from organisation after organisation giving detailed break downs of survey results by trapping method (lime stick or mist nets). This is just a fact easily verifiable by anyone willing to make the effort. Yet over and over you claim 'they never make distinction between lime sticks and mist nets'. And you talk about 'truth' !

As the lists are presented, with no numbers of birds trapped etc, one cannot assess the impact each method of trapping has on the species.

You know what, we tried talking to the illegal trappers and asked them politely to give us season reports on exactly how many birds they trapped broken down my trapping method and species - but guess what they were reluctant to do so. Maybe we were just too 'colonial' for their tastes ? Round and round you go making the same absurd assertions, ignoring when they are challenge and then just repeating them again 2 pages later. The surveys done , survey ACTIVITY, they do not deal in absolute numbers because such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE. Get it yet ?

their purpose is not to give factual information in order to form a balanced opinion, but to create impressions for propaganda purposes.

You state the kind of BS you do above over and over in this tread and have the temerity to accuse others of trying to create impressions for propaganda purposes ?

Is this really the best you can do subaltern ? That its all a conspiracy of lying colonialist and that lime sticks are not an indiscriminate method of trapping ? Is that really all you have ?

[Paphitis]

It appears that no amount of evidence is likely to influence or at least prompt some of the Noahs to question their held beliefs put in their heads in a 30 year propaganda campaign by the bird champions regarding bird trapping in Cyprus.

You have not managed to provide any valid evidence that would make anyone with any shred of common sense to rethink anything!

In this sense the bird champions have been successful at a cost though; as they wedge war against the trappers, and since “in war, truth is the first casualty”, (Aeschylus) they have not hesitated in killing the truth and with it the unnecessary killing of untold numbers of birds. Think about it; would the trappers behaved differently if they were not persecuted? To put it simpler, would you respond positively to someone who beats you up or to someone who talks to you? Our friends cannot get away from their colonialist behaviour.

The "Bird Champions" most of which are CYPRIOT, have been very successful at outlawing Bird Trapping and I don't appreciate your efforts at belittling them and making them look inferior to the "caring Western Man".

The vilification of the trappers is their main objective and no amount of effort is too much and neither disinformation is too little in order to achieve their objective.

There is no vilification. They are guilty of a criminal activity!

Numbers, tables, reports and the like are produced in order to “prove” the correlation between bird trapping and bird depletion. Millions of birds are caught we hear. Huge amounts of birds caught yet the price of ambelopoulia does not come down! It seems the laws of economics do not apply in Cyprus unless ambelopoulia eating is addictive that prompts someone to spend 80 euros for 12 little birds the equivalent of the price of 2 lambs!! Or every person in Cyprus, from suckling babies to toothless grandmothers is in love with ambelopoulia thus driving the price higher. Something is not quite right; someone is fibbing. The question is who can it be?

I really don't think they care about the Laws of Economics. It is obviously profitable enough for a few Bird Trappers to continue to engage in this activity and the conservationists continue to protect the birds from this activity which continues to be indiscriminate and a danger to some threatened species.

Tables are compiled with birds caught on lime sticks AND mist nets aimed at people with no idea of how lime sticks or mist nets work. Mist nets are indiscriminate while lime sticks are set for “ambelopoulia” on trees where the birds go to feed except during the first week of their arrival to Cyprus.

The sooner all these methods are stopped, the better!

Traditions were made to be broken!

They are caught during the morning feeding time. Of course no one explained what ablelopoulia are. They are not owls, bee eaters, sky larks, kingfishers, chukars, short-ear owls, pallid harriers, kestrels etc what are they then? You have not been told. Some of the birds mentioned here and many-many others mentioned in the lists are not even hunted by the trappers (a) because they are not eaten in Cyprus (b) there are not many worth their while to trap and (c) if we believe the propaganda that ambelopoulia are sold at 80 euros per dozen, why should a trappers go trapping a bird not in demand, very few in number and a lot not even eatable; unless the trappers do not know what. they are doing or they do it in order to irate the bird champions. Quite a number of birds on the lists are so rare in Cyprus that the likelihood of one been caught is nil.

The nets are actually indiscriminate and they do trap many other species other than ampelopoullia. Some of these species you have actually mentioned above.

Further, the lists published are misleading. “Species affected by trapping with limesticks and mistnets and their conservation status” compiled by CABS and Cyprus friends of the earth dated April 2010 contains 122 species trapped SINCE 1957.

Nothing is misleading at all. Erolz posted a lot of documented evidence early which you dismissed.

Furthermore, even the practice of Trapping Ampelopoulia must stop. Why anyone would even bother with this "food source" has got me beat!

Another report by BirdLife Cyprus “Update on illegal bird trapping activity in Cyprus” covering autumn 2012 and published December 2012, lists 152 bird species trapped, this time SINCE 1968!! It contains 30 species more than the April 2010 report! Perhaps the 30 extra species included in the 2012 were escaping from the European puss, the farming methods, pesticides etc.

Perhaps in the 2 years more research was done hence the additional species. Maybe they are just saying that the extra 30 species would be effected by illegal Trapping.

Since you have never provided ANY valid links, like Erolz does, then how are we suppose to know?

However, no distinction is made between mistnet and limesticks trapping and neither number of birds trapped by either or both. You can of course, if you like, input your own numbers for each spices from the millions trapped.
The lists contained birds that do not even frequent trees where the limesticks are set; like skylarks, swallows, martins etc.

Either way, both are illegal and an appalling method.

If you bother to check with any of the Bird Groups you will find that they do distinguish between the methods and they oppose all of them due to the fact that these methods are indiscriminate. You can't tell me that any of the other species will not frequent the trees where these traps are set.

As the lists are presented, with no numbers of birds trapped etc, one cannot assess the impact each method of trapping has on the species. While in the conservation status column in the tables, the birds are identified by colour coding whether they are “declining”, “depleted”, “rare” etc; no reasons are given as to why their status is what it is, in order to know where to direct our attention or rather the bird champions attention. Much more can be said about the misleading information put out by the reports; their purpose is not to give factual information in order to form a balanced opinion, but to create impressions for propaganda purposes.

It really does not matter.

Time to do away with all these methods and completely end Ampellopoullia Trapping! As I said, traditions were made to be broken!

Creating scapegoats does not only ease ones guilt but justifies ones actions.
Telling the truth of course will render their mission superfluous and their self- righteousness laughable.

No scapegoats at all. Just an illegal activity which must end!

However, if the bird champions are really interested in saving the birds, they have to start negotiating rather than imposing their will on others.

The law is quite clear. You can't negotiate RoC laws!

PS This should be read in conduction with my other posts on the subject.

Absolutely! There is a lot of comical material within each of them which are good for a laugh!

None of my post should be taken as an attack on the birds but on the hypocrisy and cultural imperialism of the so called “civilised west”.

I wouldn't worry about that! I don't think any of your posts would be taken seriously enough for that to happen!

[The subaltern]

Why so much fuss about bird trapping in Cyprus and not what’s happening to birds in Europe? It’s a problem that in order to be understood one has to look at it from different angles. The arrogance of the west in formulating what the problem is plays a big part in the way the problem is perceived. Since it is view through a western perspective it will project western views, interests etc .Of course in such situation hunting in Cyprus in its different forms is going to be judged by comparing it to the western hunting practises.

Hunting practices in Cyprus have not change much through the millennia despite the introduction of new technologies i.e. the hunting gun. Birds and animals were hunted and still are, in order to be eaten and nothing more, while hunting in the European context has taken a totally different form. It acquired also a different meaning. Birds and animals were hunted and are still hunted, not so much to be eaten but for their skins, feathers, to grace collections in museums or mansions of the aristocracy, killed in order to clear land for agriculture or to protect crops or just killed for the pleasure of killing.

Where the birds and animals in Europe have been depleted as a result the European hunting practices they saw opportunities elsewhere. They expanded their hunting space to the conquered lands for the same purpose. The seas, air and land provided opportunities for further exploitation and profits. Whole industries were set up in order to exploit the new found resources.

With the commercialisation of agriculture, especially birds became the victims of the new developments. Habitats were destroyed in order to provide more agricultural land, food sources were diminishing and coupled with the intensive use of chemicals among other practices severely reduced the wild life.

We see here two different attitudes towards wild life; the Cypriot one been of a single purpose, hunt in order to eat, while the European a multipurpose one with totally different effects on wild life. The Cypriot one been static and symbiotic in nature has persisted through the ages unchanged, while the European been multidimensional, was exploitative and non symbiotic, had devastating consequences on the wild life wherever the Europeans set foot.

The two attitudes towards the wild life are diametrically opposite. The symbiotic one wishes to maintain the relationship with the wild life while the exploitative divorces the hunter from his pray and sees the pray as a commodity and a commercial opportunity to be exploited.

In the process of exploitation of the wild life and the environment in general, the non symbiotic kind attitude to nature reaches the limit of exploitation due to the depletion of the resources to be exploited, and through a realisation of the damage cause as a result of the exploitative practices, demand from the symbiotic practitioners to curtail their hunting practices as though they were themselves practitioners of the exploitative kind of hunting. This is done of course through the usual channels of propaganda etc as has been mentioned before in my other posts.

The Cypriot hunting practises are to a very large extend dependant upon the migratory birds arriving to Cyprus that have themselves been depleted as a result of practices beyond the Cypriots control. As a result the Cypriot finds himself in conflict with those whose actions have caused the depletion of wild life. In effect the Cypriots have become the victims of others misdeeds and are now asked or rather forced to pay the prise. The price they are ask to pay is the abandonment of their tradition and one wonders who owns the birds and wild life in general! Who has the moral authority to pass judgement? Is the west who has divorce herself from nature and sees nature as something to be exploited and the western man been its manager, has the moral authority to be the judge of other peoples practices?

The trappers, by not conforming to the dictates of the bird champions, are by their actions questioning their moral authority to be their judges.

Of course there are local disables, subscribers to the western European perspective not I think through looking at hunting from the Cypriot perspective but through the European one and demand the adoption of the western solutions.
The worst slavery is when one stops seen the world with his own eyes but with someone else’s or thinks with some ones else’s brain. The slavery of the mind is exactly what the west wants. No need to send conquering armies nowadays the job can be done not even by them but by their brainwashed locals.

To confirm the above and of my previous posts, an article in today’s Sunday Times 19/1/2014, in the UK declares: “Goodbye birds. Goodbye butterflies. Hello… Farmageddon” and continues “No wildlife can be seen at today’s mega-farms; just slime, smog and sewage.” And farther down…”as for the cows they last only two to three years, 10-15 years less than their natural lifespan. Crammed into barren pens on tiny patches of land, they stand around listlessly waiting to be fed, milked or injected with antibiotics…..In their short lives they never see grass… A report by the Centre for Agri-Environmental Research” etc “warned that there were now too few bees in Britain to pollinate crops” and one assumes for bee eaters to eat. And continues: “The countryside is too sterile to support many native birds in the last 40 years the population of tree sparrows has fallen by 97%... The future of the British countryside is under growing thread as industrial agriculture takes heavy toll on wild life, woods and flowers. Numbers of much-loved species including turtle doves and skylarks have fallen by as much as 90% in recent decades.” That’s just in one country, Britain! What about the rest of the Civilised West? What’s its contribution towards the species depletion?

Yet the same people preach to the rest of us what our attitude to animals should be. This of course is not to rejoice for the plight of birds and wild life in general but an opportunity for our home grown and foreign St, Francis’s to sober up and stop blaming the Cypriot tradition for bird depletion.

Would the above make any difference to the attitude of the bird champions? Of course not! It is the Cypriots fault whatever you say, and the above is one more reason to blame them for the bird depletion, why bother with the rest and we have the statistics to prove it. Millions of birds!!

[erolz66]

Why so much fuss about bird trapping in Cyprus and not what’s happening to birds in Europe? It’s a problem that in order to be understood one has to look at it from different angles. The arrogance of the west in formulating what the problem is plays a big part in the way the problem is perceived. Since it is view through a western perspective it will project western views, interests etc .Of course in such situation hunting in Cyprus in its different forms is going to be judged by comparing it to the western hunting practises.

BS. For the umpteenth time NO ONE is saying that illegal trapping is the ONLY factor that causes species depletion. This is a CYPRUS forum and a thread about CYPRIOT attitudes to animals. As far as Europe goes it knows its historic track record is bad and that it needs to better in the future, which is why there are countless EU directives dealing with habitat protection and for birds IBA's. This is just the same old attempt to distract with the irrelevant 'hey others are worse' line. Over an over.'

Hunting practices in Cyprus have not change much through the millennia despite the introduction of new technologies i.e. the hunting gun. Birds and animals were hunted and still are, in order to be eaten and nothing more, while hunting in the European context has taken a totally different form. It acquired also a different meaning. Birds and animals were hunted and are still hunted, not so much to be eaten but for their skins, feathers, to grace collections in museums or mansions of the aristocracy, killed in order to clear land for agriculture or to protect crops or just killed for the pleasure of killing.

Yet more DDD. Firstly HUNTING is not the issue here, the issue is illegal bird trapping. Hunting IS discriminate. Trapping, as practiced in Cyprus today is NOT. If you knew anything about the subject you would know that some of the strongest supports for efforts to reduce illegal trapping comes from CYPRIOT hunters, for they have a direct personal interest. As for the idea that trapping of small birds has not changed through the millennia, this is just not true. The vast majority of Illegal trapping as practiced in Cyprus today bears no relation to such trapping 100 or even 50 years ago. It has changed totally, in how it is done, why it is done and who does it. That is just a fact. You can and clearly will ignore this truth even though it has be pointed out to you over and over in this tread and just keep repeating your propaganda lies over and over. 50 years ago, those in Cyprus who trapped small birds were largely the same people who ate them. This is just not the case today. Today the vast majority of those trapping birds are not doing so for self consumption but for profit.

Where the birds and animals in Europe have been depleted as a result the European hunting practices they saw opportunities elsewhere. They expanded their hunting space to the conquered lands for the same purpose. The seas, air and land provided opportunities for further exploitation and profits. Whole industries were set up in order to exploit the new found resources.

FFS go and post you BS on Europe-forum.com if you want to talk about European's attitudes to hunting. Just more DDD.

We see here two different attitudes towards wild life; the Cypriot one been of a single purpose, hunt in order to eat, while the European a multipurpose one with totally different effects on wild life. The Cypriot one been static and symbiotic in nature has persisted through the ages unchanged, while the European been multidimensional, was exploitative and non symbiotic, had devastating consequences on the wild life wherever the Europeans set foot.

Just yet more lies, based on falsehoods.

The two attitudes towards the wild life are diametrically opposite. The symbiotic one wishes to maintain the relationship with the wild life while the exploitative divorces the hunter from his pray and sees the pray as a commodity and a commercial opportunity to be exploited.

This is exactly how the majority of those involved in illegal trapping in Cyprus today regard the activity - as a commodity and illegal commercial opportunity to be exploited. If you have the guts come with me - I will take you to trapping areas where after 20 minutes of surveying we will be approached by men who will, if you tell them that you are monitoring illegal trapping activity, will make it explicitly clear that you are encroaching on their illegal commercial activity and if you do not stop there will be consequences and that they are not the sort of people you want to mess with. I have personally experienced such things. These are CRIMINALS, the same people who deal in drugs and prostitution and illegal gambling. It is just a fact. To claim they have some sort of 'symbiotic' relationship to the environment and do not view their illegal trapping activities as 'commercial' is just bullshit of a monumental degree.

The Cypriot hunting practises are to a very large extend dependant upon the migratory birds arriving to Cyprus that have themselves been depleted as a result of practices beyond the Cypriots control.

Talk to any responsible CYPRIOT hunter and they will tell you exactly the same that I have been saying and Bird Life Cyprus and countless other internationally recognised Bird preservation organisations have been saying, in regards to how illegal trapping as practiced today in Cyprus has nothing to do with 'tradition' in the how, why and who.

Of course there are local disables, subscribers to the western European perspective not I think through looking at hunting from the Cypriot perspective but through the European one and demand the adoption of the western solutions.

The majority of CYPRIOT hunters hate what the CYPRIOT illegal trappers are doing. That is just a fact. They have seen with their own eyes how the changes in illegal trapping has directly affected bird wildlife in Cyprus. [/quote]

Would the above make any difference to the attitude of the bird champions? Of course not! It is the Cypriots fault whatever you say, and the above is one more reason to blame them for the bird depletion, why bother with the rest and we have the statistics to prove it. Millions of birds!!

Over and Over. BS. For the umpteenth + 1 time NO ONE is saying that illegal trapping is the ONLY factor that causes species depletion. This is a CYPRUS forum and a thread about CYPRIOT attitudes to animals. So here we are discussing how CYPRIOT actions and inactions with regard to illegal trapping affect species depletion in birds. As far as Europe goes it knows its historic track record is bad and that it needs to better in the future, which is why there are countless EU directives dealing with habitat protection and for birds IBA's. This is just the same old attempt to distract with the irrelevant 'hey others are worse' line. Over an over.'

[miltiades]

Correct in every sense Sir.

[Niki]

I haven't posted for along time and most won't know me but I lived in Cyprus for 3 years and moved back to the UK. My overriding memory is of animal cruelty in Cyprus. Not the beautiful country or it's people who were wonderful but the attitude towards animals by many, not all but it is the majority.
I am not saying the UK is perfect, it is far from this but in Cyprus animal cruelty is a way of life. I will never forget the starving dog locked 24/7 in a cage across the road, the 7 puppies thrown on to the busy main road outside my house, the dog with a broken leg and severe malnutrition that all in my village ignored (it broke my heart when the amber eyes looked at me when the vet put her to sleep), the starving family of dogs at my daughter's school..... The list goes on and I simply can't lose the memories. We have a beautiful Cyprus poodle in the UK rescued from the Limassol dog pound starving and badly beaten and he is gorgeous.
Of course people are defensive and bring up the many examples of animal cruelty in the UK but IT IS DIFFERENT! People in Cyprus have a different perspective and this can't be denied. Attitudes have to change.