Cyprus-Forum.com

[MrH]

Reunification will always fail primarily for the below reasons:

(1) The Greek Cypriots strongly object to the dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus
(2) The Turkish Cypriots believe that the current "Republic of Cyprus" can not continue in a new Comprehensive settlement based on a Federal basis
(3) The Greek Cypriots entered the EU as the "Republic of Cyprus" under their own terms without the consent or, advice even, of the Turkish Cypriots
(4) The "Republic of Cyprus" today resembles nothing of the original "Cyprus Republic" of 1959/60...No Zurich Agreements and etc!
(5) The 13-point changes the Greek Cypriot fought for in 1963/4 and now include in today's "Republic of Cyprus" without the permission of the Turkish Cypriots
(6) "Reunification" can not be, neither the TRNC or the GC-ROC, but a completely NEW platform of two Federated states under One Confederal Government
(7) "Unification" is a term concerning Cyprus that incorporate the Turkish Cypriots as another "Minority" community, deeming a resolution impossible!
(8) The Greek and Turkish Cypriots are "Partner" people of the Original Cyprus Republic - not to be forgotten please!
(9) The Cyprus problem can never be resolved without both signatures (as previously stated in another post)
(10) There is NO COMMON SINGLE Language in Cyprus, unless the Greek Cypriots will accept it to be the English Language.
(11) A Comprehensive Federal agreement is only discussed by Cypriots only, thus a formula for disaster as they can't even agree a Meeting let alone a settlement.
(12) The Turkish Cypriot NORTH (TRNC) has this week started to sway from such an agreement and has commenced its Plan-B already....http://www.lgcnews.com/islamic-bank-15-million-dollar-deal-tc-chamber-commerce/ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation - is a good example of this.

Finally, on the issue of Territory/adjustment, the Greek Cypriots wage their reasons on larger territory based on their population, where the world clearly does not operate this way otherwise Greece (with its tiny 10million people) could easily fit into Athens alone and the rest of their land would have been shared between Turkey and Italy (having much larger populations). Hence, why the territory Greek Cypriot constant bashing of their argument doesn't make much sense at the UN Table!

[Nikitas]

Your approach to territory and the rationalisation is total nonsense.

The territory and the properties issues is interconnected, and must be resolved according to those international standards that you mention. You cannot arbitrarily divest people of their property as per the criteria of pesky bodies like the UN, EU, Council of Europe.

Territory in the NEW entity, like you stress, must reflect the realities of population. The population segment of 18 per cent holding on to 37 per cent of the territory, and presumably not even accepting the property ownership in that territory, will simply not fly. What you are saying is that each TC is entitled to twice the territory of every other Cypriot of ALL the other communities on the island. You think about that a while and you will see the implicit racism.

If you are not capable of understanding the importance of the RoC for GCs then you are pushing them to Enosis. Which maybe had been the plan all along.

[zan]

Your approach to territory and the rationalisation is total nonsense.

The territory and the properties issues is interconnected, and must be resolved according to those international standards that you mention. You cannot arbitrarily divest people of their property as per the criteria of pesky bodies like the UN, EU, Council of Europe.

Territory in the NEW entity, like you stress, must reflect the realities of population. The population segment of 18 per cent holding on to 37 per cent of the territory, and presumably not even accepting the property ownership in that territory, will simply not fly. What you are saying is that each TC is entitled to twice the territory of every other Cypriot of ALL the other communities on the island. You think about that a while and you will see the implicit racism.

If you are not capable of understanding the importance of the RoC for GCs then you are pushing them to Enosis. Which maybe had been the plan all along.

What about growth....people retuning after a settlement?

[repulsewarrior]

Your approach to territory and the rationalisation is total nonsense.

The territory and the properties issues is interconnected, and must be resolved according to those international standards that you mention. You cannot arbitrarily divest people of their property as per the criteria of pesky bodies like the UN, EU, Council of Europe.

Territory in the NEW entity, like you stress, must reflect the realities of population. The population segment of 18 per cent holding on to 37 per cent of the territory, and presumably not even accepting the property ownership in that territory, will simply not fly. What you are saying is that each TC is entitled to twice the territory of every other Cypriot of ALL the other communities on the island. You think about that a while and you will see the implicit racism.

If you are not capable of understanding the importance of the RoC for GCs then you are pushing them to Enosis. Which maybe had been the plan all along.

What about growth....people retuning after a settlement?

...indeed at which point, you may consider the choices you would have as Cypriots if the land itself is not simply torn in two, if there are two (or more) Constituencies, (as well as, and within, a Republic), there is no reason to end the significance of the Green line as a "frontier", if there were many, in one Cyprus. rather a Constituency can be made up of components, nothing prevents the creation of Territorial Jurisdictions, in any manner Cypriots want, at which point: why not enclaves that pocket the whole island, as it is divided today? it offers repopulation, for communities, as well as for Individuals, it makes it very difficult for extremists to gain the support they need, because Citizens can respect each other's Liberty, and defend Freedom as one People. as the island has been divided today, anything but an idea which ends the "fait accompli" only secures an artificial Peace, simply because when divided in "two", it is easy to promote enmity.

[zan]

Have you got a map RW. If so, please post.

[repulsewarrior]

have I piqued your interest, zan?

[zan]

have I piqued your interest, zan?

Didn't want to sound rude again but your words just don't do it Have you got a map?

[Nikitas]

Maps have been posted in the past by Kifeas showing both the 18 per cent and the 12 per cent coverage of the island. The 12 per cent being the verified TC land ownership.

Territory goes beyond maps. It includes the marine EEZ, airspace, provision for the SBAs in the event of a British withdrawal from either one or both SBAs, apportioning of the coast line. It is arguable that even a 12 per cent TC area can be drawn up in such a manner that it can retain disproportionately large coastline and therefore EEZ.

What concerns me is that the demarcation line should be clear, easily policed, definitive in the sense that it leaves no room for future disputes, ensures as much as possible contiguity of the two constituent regions and reflects the population percentages (along with the apparent forcing into the GC total all the mimority communities of the island), since none want to be considered TCs.

Future returnees would swell the population by how much? If all GCs return, along with their descendants woud add another 500 000 people, I do not know the TC numbers. There are 250 000 GCs in the UK, some 150 000 in Australia, Canada and New Zealand and fewer in other places. I know in Greece we are less than 35 000 GCs. The percentages, I would guess, remain the same with or without returnees.

The TC negotiator is making a big deal of the "viability" of the TC region, in a pre-emptive ploy on territory.Malta, Lichtenstein, Monaco, Luxembourg, Delaware, manage pretty damn well on less territory and with more people than the TC region and have no viability problems.

TO even things out a little. The TC side said that it is not possible to expect residents of the "other" community to have political rights if they reside in the "other" region. Sounds reasonable and I am surprised that some GC politicians objected. It is inevitable that there will be residence mixing after a settlement. People will live where there are jobs, not where the "authorities" want them to live. Allowing the new "minorities" that form after settlement to have the vote etc makes monkeys of any settlement re governance and representation.

Territory is one thing, governance a totally different issue. I keep harping about territory because it is, in my opinion, the cornerstone of any future peace. Governance and all the rest will be taken care of by the EU daily practice no matter what we agree. Territory will remain, and if it is perceived to be unfairly settled it will cause future conflicts.

[zan]

Maps have been posted in the past by Kifeas showing both the 18 per cent and the 12 per cent coverage of the island. The 12 per cent being the verified TC land ownership.

Territory goes beyond maps. It includes the marine EEZ, airspace, provision for the SBAs in the event of a British withdrawal from either one or both SBAs, apportioning of the coast line. It is arguable that even a 12 per cent TC area can be drawn up in such a manner that it can retain disproportionately large coastline and therefore EEZ.

What concerns me is that the demarcation line should be clear, easily policed, definitive in the sense that it leaves no room for future disputes, ensures as much as possible contiguity of the two constituent regions and reflects the population percentages (along with the apparent forcing into the GC total all the mimority communities of the island), since none want to be considered TCs.

Future returnees would swell the population by how much? If all GCs return, along with their descendants woud add another 500 000 people, I do not know the TC numbers. There are 250 000 GCs in the UK, some 150 000 in Australia, Canada and New Zealand and fewer in other places. I know in Greece we are less than 35 000 GCs. The percentages, I would guess, remain the same with or without returnees.

The TC negotiator is making a big deal of the "viability" of the TC region, in a pre-emptive ploy on territory.Malta, Lichtenstein, Monaco, Luxembourg, Delaware, manage pretty damn well on less territory and with more people than the TC region and have no viability problems.

TO even things out a little. The TC side said that it is not possible to expect residents of the "other" community to have political rights if they reside in the "other" region. Sounds reasonable and I am surprised that some GC politicians objected. It is inevitable that there will be residence mixing after a settlement. People will live where there are jobs, not where the "authorities" want them to live. Allowing the new "minorities" that form after settlement to have the vote etc makes monkeys of any settlement re governance and representation.

Territory is one thing, governance a totally different issue. I keep harping about territory because it is, in my opinion, the cornerstone of any future peace. Governance and all the rest will be taken care of by the EU daily practice no matter what we agree. Territory will remain, and if it is perceived to be unfairly settled it will cause future conflicts.

I asked for a specific map of RWs vision Nikitas….

[repulsewarrior]

...again, the question remains, have I piqued your interest, or is this one of these trick questions like Harlem should or shouldn't be an enclave.