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Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby miltiades » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:36 pm

The subaltern wrote:I have been reading with interest all your posts as I am interested on the subject.
I have in fact talked to some people of your age and older about your recollections.
On the whole they find them reliable but have doubts as to the validity of some events you described that makes your experience of the era rather unusual.

I hope you do not mind me if I put their doubts to you for clarification and for the sake of historical accuracy.

You described an event where drunken soldiers came to your house and beat up your father and you. That, was according to them a common occurrence, but was not done
by drunken soldiers but by sober once knowing full well what they were doing and again according to my old friends, having a superior in charge of them.
Regarding the same event: after been beaten black and blue you and your father were called in by some soldier where you was given sweets and your father compensated with some money for the privilege of been beaten up. That according to my sources was unbelievable. People were beaten up but never compensated.

Regarding the tearing up of EOKA leaflets by left wingers at Agios Lucas openly as you have described. This again, they dispute for a simple reason: Tearing EOKA leaflets at the time was a very daring thing to do. You were likely to be branded a traitor to the cause and nobody would have like to have this against their name.
They wondered why you did not report them been an active member of the organisation.

Your other comment of growing up at Famagusta and showing interest in girls and getting hot at Famagusta beach looking at bikini glad girls. Again they dispute. (a) Cyprus girls at the time did not wear beginnings or if they did very -very few. (b) According to them perhaps you were looking at British soldier’s wives but even them they did not wear bikinis much and where they swam at Famagust beach, was cordoned off by barbed wire for security reasons. GCs were not allowed near it.
They think that your imagination got the better of you!

They last one they find rather funny and we all had a laugh. That was the one to do with the Turkish ebicuricos (auxiliary police) during the curfew imposed by the British after the Kioneli massacre; where you saw his balls hanging down his short trousers! They disputed that on the grounds that the epikourikoi were short in general and their trousers were reaching to their knees. Either the Turkish epicuricos was a very-very big boy, or bouzis perhaps; but most likely you put it down as a joke; good one at that.
But dispute of what followed; that the epicurikos escorted you to your cousin’s house after asking his English superior. According to them this was never done. Similarly finding the name of the soldier who gave the authorisation to visit your cousin as Fred they wondered how did you managed to get this information. However, according to my friends all English soldiers were known as John or Jonnies.

What you are posting here is I assume from a book you have written. Am I correct? I have my reasons to believe that it is; nothing wrong with this.

After a talk with the old boys, they came to the conclusion that overall your reminiscences are similar to theirs but you paint a rather rosy picture of the English behaviour.
I hope you don’t mind the comments. This is not meant as a criticism but for historical accuracy.

Thanks

From the outset I stated that the events I described were true and based on MY recollections. You describe the drunken soldiers in a way that they were a figment of my imagination. They were not, British soldiers indulged in heavy drinking, there was nothing much to do in Stroumbi in 1955, a few beers was all the young soldiers had to relax with.

Most of the British soldiers, especially the Scots and the Welsh were jolly decent young men, the English and especially the Irish were the ones to watch out for.

From 1953 to 1955, during my time in the Limassol orphanage, I witnessed the incredible kindness of English people who gave us kids so much comfort and care, I ought to add that during my time in the Pediki Stegi, not one single Cypriot gestured any care or love towards the orphans. Many wealthy Cypriot families, not the least interested in the plight of little children without a mother or a father, the English mums who regularly passed by pushing their prams considered the happiness that a bag of treats would bring to us children. Yes Sir, I recollect what I experienced, and challenge anyone who lived through those years to challenge my writings.

The British were an occupation force but they were not Nazis, my recollections on my friend Fred were true, I swear on my mothers grave, that was his name, not Johnny or anything else, but Fred.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby erolz66 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:05 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: Another example of the Werlitzer's inability to evaluate correctly.


Yawn

When Subaltern said "No minority has ever had the right to determine what the wishes of the majority should be. " I took him to mean "No minority has ever had the right to determine what the wishes of the majority should be. ". I then gave an example that showed what he actually said was just not factually correct.

Are you suggesting that my 'evaluation' of him saying "No minority has ever had the right to determine what the wishes of the majority should be." should have involved me thinking, ok he said "No minority has ever had the right to determine what the wishes of the majority should be. " but what he must actually mean is "no minority in the same situation as that the TC minority were in in Cyprus leading up to the end of colonial rule there has ever had had the right to block something like the imposition of enosis on them against their collective will as a numerical minority" ? Is THAT what you mean by inability to evaluate correctly ?

What Subaltern stated was just factually incorrect. That it also just happened to suit a classic GC propaganda need is actually neither here nor there. If it does suit such a need or not it is STILL just simply and plainly factually incorrect.

I only 're visited' this specific factual inaccuracy after my first reply to him and his reply to that to show how pointless it is trying to have any sort of serious grown up discussion of any value with people who make a factually inaccurate statement and when challenged on it, do not deal with the claim of factual inaccuracy, but instead simply move the goal posts without acknowledging at all the inaccuracy of the original statement and move on to 'Ad hominem' arguments. A point you amply reinforce with your own post.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:39 pm

You gave an example of their right to vote and contribute to an outcome. That wasn't a matter that was being disputed by the meaning within the quote.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:59 pm

...please, subaltern, and you too erolz, (and you too Gig, able to stir up the same amount of shit but with far fewer words), can we not have the decency to appreciate that there is a place in this Forum for political debate, and that this section is for the, general public. if you are old enough to recall, do so, please, if you dare. it will make for good writing, as miltiades has, (without a PLONKER in sight), i would not doubt that among us there are really interesting memories, (the "us" being the members who write) because we (read: above politics; as Human beings) were all children once.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby erolz66 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:12 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You gave an example of their right to vote and contribute to an outcome. That wasn't a matter that was being disputed by the meaning within the quote.


I gave an example where a numerically tiny minority has in law the RIGHT to block the will of a vastly greater numerical majority, in the face of the claim that "No minority has ever had the right to determine what the wishes of the majority should be.". It is just a fact that on issues where the right to veto applies the RoC, as a tiny numerical minority has the right to block the wishes of a massively larger numerical majority, and quite rightly so in my opinion I might add. This is all just plain fact. I also gave another example and could give countless more that show that numerical minorities can and do by RIGHT block the wishes of numerical majorities in all sort of cases.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby The subaltern » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:16 pm

Erolz66

Despite my better judgement I would have loved to reply to you about your Khomeini etc but respecting the wishes of some I will not.
Maybe another time.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:19 pm

Erolz, now you're using examples from dictatorial set-ups. If it's unlawful set-ups which you want to use as examples to denounce that quote, then there are many examples from chaos and anarchy. But the quote uses the term "right" as in just and not unlawful conduct.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby Cap » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:24 pm

miltiades wrote:Whether one agrees or dissagrees with the strugle against British imperialism , for Cyprus and the Cypriots April the 1st 1955 will always be a date of paramount importance, a date that will last for ever in the minds and hearts of the G/Cs.

I was almost 9 years old on that day, a week or so after returning to the new village from Limassol orphanage , a new village with prefabricated "housing" built to house the Stroumbiotes following the catastrophic earthquaqe of September 10th 1953.

None of us young kids ever felt that we were under the occupation of the British, at least I did not, as I had very happy memories of English kindness shown to us kids in the orphanage by kind, humane English people, more than I can say for some of my own race who could help the orphans but did nothing.

My father explained to us that the struggle by EOKA was to rid our selves from British occupation and achieve ENOSIS with our " motherland", Greece.
My older brother , just over 15 years old was overtly excited , a teenager with too much energy who was exuberant at the fact that the struggle had commenced.

Not wishing to bore you with my recollections, I take a break now and get back if enough interest is generated.


My mother spoke many times of the Anglo soldiers that came to our village knocking on doors and asking to search the premises looking for EOKA activists.
Not once did she mention anything about violence, intimidation and torture.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:07 pm

The subaltern wrote:Erolz66

Despite my better judgement I would have loved to reply to you about your Khomeini etc but respecting the wishes of some I will not.
Maybe another time.


...nothing stops us from opening new threads, appropriately.
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Re: Childhood Memories of THE STRUGGLE

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:25 pm

Cap wrote:
miltiades wrote:Whether one agrees or dissagrees with the strugle against British imperialism , for Cyprus and the Cypriots April the 1st 1955 will always be a date of paramount importance, a date that will last for ever in the minds and hearts of the G/Cs.

I was almost 9 years old on that day, a week or so after returning to the new village from Limassol orphanage , a new village with prefabricated "housing" built to house the Stroumbiotes following the catastrophic earthquaqe of September 10th 1953.

None of us young kids ever felt that we were under the occupation of the British, at least I did not, as I had very happy memories of English kindness shown to us kids in the orphanage by kind, humane English people, more than I can say for some of my own race who could help the orphans but did nothing.

My father explained to us that the struggle by EOKA was to rid our selves from British occupation and achieve ENOSIS with our " motherland", Greece.
My older brother , just over 15 years old was overtly excited , a teenager with too much energy who was exuberant at the fact that the struggle had commenced.

Not wishing to bore you with my recollections, I take a break now and get back if enough interest is generated.


My mother spoke many times of the Anglo soldiers that came to our village knocking on doors and asking to search the premises looking for EOKA activists.
Not once did she mention anything about violence, intimidation and torture.


...i have no recollection of the British soldiers, too young, but i know from Grivas' brother the moment Digenis decided that without discipline the British and their Army truly were the enemy. I have told the story of the radio shack, the pot shots and near death, the nonchalance of their superior officers the next day. he understood the plaint, and when it affected him personally, he decided to take action. i might tell you more about that Easter dinner one day...
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