The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


CYPRIOT TURK AND CYPRIOT GREEK YOUTH ! LOOK AT HERE...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:32 pm

there's no minority in the world that are 1/5 of the total population.


Insan, there are many. Kurds in Turkey for example are 20%. In some of the Baltic countries Russians are 30% of the population etc.

TC are a minority in the same sense that blond people in Cyprus are a minority. It really doesn't mean anything. You are as equal as I am. If on the other hand the 18% TCs get 50% power, this means your vote will worth 2.7 votes while my vote will only worth 0.6 votes. Why? Are you 4.5 times more Cypriot than I am?

The only difference you have as a community is Language, culture and religion. For these things special measures will be taken to be guaranteed and supported 100%.

What I am saying I believe is very fair. What you need is to brake out of your stereotypes and join us for a better European future. (in which we will all be a tiny minority without any complexes)
User avatar
Piratis
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 12261
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:08 pm

Postby Chrisswirl » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:52 pm

Just a question, without inticing conflict, but would you have considered Greeks (or Christians) in Turkey to have been a minority or majority in Anatolia before 1922?

Maybe we should call ourselves Christian Cypriots and Muslim Cypriots... anything to realise that we are all as one.
Chrisswirl
Member
Member
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:30 am
Location: South England / Larnaka, Cyprus

Postby Piratis » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:55 pm

but these minorites and majorites are not fixed and permanent in a true democracy. They change from issue to issue.


They will change from issue to issue in Cyprus also. If everything was based on if we were TCs or GCs in Cyprus we would only have the TC party and the GC party. This is not the case.
Actually since the matters of language/culture and religion will be safeguarded and not subject to any majority decision, a TC can very well always belong in the majority (or minority) like any other Cypriot.

you have not got over the Cyprus is Greek Cypriot cause


There is no such cause! The cause is Cyprus belongs to Cypriots equally!!
Is it so hard for you to understand? (no it is not, you just want to maintain conflict and hate).

There are no human rights protections for TC as a group of people


For groups of people there are minority rights that are equal to the human rights.

Nothing that guarantees a right to the TC to run TC state schools and any number of other issues.


The constitution will. And states will run their own educational systems. This is what happens in the US also.

If you inist that TC are politicaly a minority in Cyprus then any 'special' rights you grant now in the consitution (and state are unchangeable) are in contradiction to human rights as they are written.


Nothing will be in contradiction with human rights. Tell me with what human right the "Turkish as official language" contradicts???
User avatar
Piratis
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 12261
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:08 pm

Postby insan » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Insan, there are many. Kurds in Turkey for example are 20%.



Sooner or later Turkey will give Kurds proportional participation on executive body and equal participation on legislative body; either as a unitary state ... That's what Kurdish people struggling for more than 70 years...


In some of the Baltic countries Russians are 30% of the population etc.



I don't kknow about the Baltic countries but same goes for them as well... Don't try to find excuses to degrade TCs to minority status in their own country. TCs accepted to be a minority in UK, Australia and some other countries...


TC are a minority in the same sense that blond people in Cyprus are a minority.


Nonesense...

It really doesn't mean anything. You are as equal as I am.


Yes I'm as equal as you are and also TC community is as equal as GC community on legislative body.


If on the other hand the 18% TCs get 50% power, this means your vote will worth 2.7 votes while my vote will only worth 0.6 votes. Why? Are you 4.5 times more Cypriot than I am?



This is the requirement of equal partnership on legislative body. Equality on legislative body will be the insurance system of our United Country. Power sharing on executive bosy should be proportional per population ratio.

The only difference you have as a community is Language, culture and religion. For these things special measures will be taken to be guaranteed and supported 100%.



Turks in Greece which are %0.8 of total population have all those rights. Is there something special with them?


What I am saying I believe is very fair. What you need is to brake out of your stereotypes and join us for a better European future. (in which we will all be a tiny minority without any complexes)



TCs have no complexes being a minority in countries other than their own country is a well known fact. they are widely have been living all around the world(mostly EU countries and places free of extreme GCs oppression) as a minority... Once again you talk of nonesence and irrelevant...
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9037
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby erolz » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:30 pm

Piratis wrote: They will change from issue to issue in Cyprus also. If everything was based on if we were TCs or GCs in Cyprus we would only have the TC party and the GC party. This is not the case.
Actually since the matters of language/culture and religion will be safeguarded and not subject to any majority decision, a TC can very well always belong in the majority (or minority) like any other Cypriot.


Historicasly there have been vital issues where the wishes of the GC community conflict with those of the TC community. In each and every one of these issue past and in the future you want a Cyprus where the will of the GC community will always overide that of the TC community.

Piratis wrote:
There is no such cause! The cause is Cyprus belongs to Cypriots equally!!
Is it so hard for you to understand? (no it is not, you just want to maintain conflict and hate).


I have no desire to maintain conflict and hate and your readiness to state that I do is in itslef hateful imo. To state that my views may have that consequence in your opinion is one thing but to state that it is what I want is entirely another.
For me a refusal to accept a principal of equality at the community level is the same thing as insinting that Cyprus is a GC state. Am I to be thankful that you agree we should all have equal status as individuals? Does than not go without saying? The issue is equality as communities / groups of people. If Cyprus is made up of two distinct groups of people and one group will always have the ability to 'democraticaly' impose its wishes on the whole island then you do not have a Cyprus that belongs to both communites equally. You have one that belongs to the numericaly larger community.

Piratis wrote:
For groups of people there are minority rights that are equal to the human rights.


The 'extra' rights you propose should be in the consitituion are not guaranteed at all by our status as a minority. To state we should have a right to these protections above and beyond the rights of a minority and also state we are a minority is a fundamental contradiction in your position and one you refuse to acknowledge or address.

Piratis wrote:
The constitution will.


The consitituion can be changed. In your idea of a solution that change will be determined by a GC majority. Any statement in the consitituion that says they can not be altered without the consent of the two communites contradicts your assertion that the TC are only a minority in Cyprus.

Piratis wrote:
Nothing will be in contradiction with human rights. Tell me with what human right the "Turkish as official language" contradicts???


The issue is clear and simple imo. If the consitituion states that Turkish is an offical language of Cyprus and TC community is a minority in Cyprus (in human rights terms) then there is NOTHING to stop this part of the consitution being removed at the will of a GC majority and against the wishes of a TC minority. If the consitution states that this article can not be altered without consent of the two seperate communites and also states the TC are a minority - then this is in clear contradiction with human rights. Minorites have no RIGHT to block the will of majorites.

It is you that has insisted on this 'strict' legalistic basis for a settment, not I. I have previously questioned the value of such an approach. In such an approach you can not have parts of the consitituion that are unalterable without eqaul consent of the two communites and at the same time define one of those communites as a political minority. This is a contradiction.
erolz
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2414
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: Girne / Kyrenia

Postby Piratis » Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:51 am

Erolz, it is obvious that you can't stand it when a Turkish Cypriot wants reunification. You come here by recycling old hate propaganda with the aim to keep north Cyprus occupied so your aunt and the rest of your relatives can continue to enjoy the land that you stole from us.

You do this kind of propaganda for 30 years. Where did it lead you?

You create imaginary problems, so sorry, beyond laws and examples of other countries I can give you nothing more to cover the non existing issues you create to excuse your outrageous demands.
User avatar
Piratis
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 12261
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:08 pm

Postby erolz » Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:32 pm

Piratis wrote: Erolz, it is obvious that you can't stand it when a Turkish Cypriot wants reunification.


Not true at all. I present my views here nothing more. If TC have different views then I consider them as valid as mine even if I disagree with them and I certainly do not resort to calling them traitors.

Piratis wrote:You come here by recycling old hate propaganda with the aim to keep north Cyprus occupied so your aunt and the rest of your relatives can continue to enjoy the land that you stole from us.


Your view - which once again is absoloute rubbish in my opinion. The statements of your president as reported in the thread 'words from the wise' are recyling old hate propaganda.

Piratis wrote:You create imaginary problems, so sorry, beyond laws and examples of other countries I can give you nothing more to cover the non existing issues you create to excuse your outrageous demands.


There is nothing imaginary in the contradictions I point out to you. What you could do is accept that if the TC community is to be granted 'protections' that are beyond those granted to minorites in the UN charter of human rights then by basic logic it means that the TC community is not just a political minority in Cyprus. You could do this but refuse to. Why?
erolz
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 2414
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: Girne / Kyrenia

Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:06 pm

This discussion is been repeated over and over again. I think we should clarify some things.

1) Are you talking for a Federal solution or a Unitary state solution?
2) In Federal solution the terms majority and minority are meaningless (in constituent states level) because we have the FedStates representing groups, irrespective of the number of their inhabitants.
3) In Federal solution equality means each constituent state is only accountable to itself and to the common state.
4) The matter of arithmetic majority/minority is reflected only at Common state level. There, on some issues that affect every person of each group equally, equality means 18 - 82% voting share. On issues that might not affect every person of each group equally we have a 50 - 50 voting share.

Everybody knows that the Federal solution in Cyprus will not be the result of a natural evolution. And in this respect to have it applied, we have to suppress the individual rights of the arithmetically larger group to a degree that might not be bearable.

The Anan Plan was even worse than that, as it was for a loose association (Not a Federation) , of two separate States with clear and defined borders. Here we had a distorted version of equality that suppressed the individual rights of the GCs at all levels, just because they belong to an arithmetically larger group. Like the right to reside, to vote, to be elected, to run a bussiness, to get their properties back, to buy properties etc.

Lets take for example the matter of properties as described in the Anan Plan to see how a distorted version of equality can affect negatively the arithmetic majority. Presumably all dispossed owners (GCs and TCs) were allowed to get 1/3 of their properties back and the remaining 2/3 on meaningless bonds. Is this equality or not? The answer is NO! Because this arrangement does not affect equally each and every individual. Every TC (just because he belongs to a numerically smaller group) will be able to find an abundance of GCs ready to exhange their properties instead of getting bonds, whereas the majority of GCs will soon discover that there is not even one TC left with any property to exchange. So the only ones who in the end will stay with meaningless bonds in hand, are the GCs!!! Furthermore the restriction (applicable only to GCs - I wonder how this complies with any issue of equality) to buy land in the TC state, will eventually lead to an abundance of land available for sale ONLY to TCs and Settlers at extremely low prices. In the end the TCs and settlers will own proportionately double property than any other GC !!

PS. Do I need to repeat that every time I try to examine the possibility of a Federal solution in Cyprus I come to a dead end? The reason is because this Federation is not based on any natural evolution. It will be technical, forced, and contrary to any meaning of natural justice and equality.

In my opinion the only practical solution to get us out of what we are today, in an almost painless way, is a bizonal Unitary State. In which the State itself will appoint exclussively TC government officials administrators and excecutives to run a region where the majority of TCs will live.Irrespective of the number of GCs among them. And in which the matter of equality will be like what we agreed with Erol in other threads.
User avatar
MicAtCyp
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1579
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:10 am

Previous

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest