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[Paphitis]

It exists RH, it just can't be published for our benefit.

How awfully convenient!

It's the reality. The number of Satellites currently spying on Russia would be unbelievable. Unfortunately, those countries are not going to reveal their clandestine operations or their capabilities just over an Airline Crash.

What is interesting is the fact that no one ever accused the Russians of deliberately shooting down MH17. We understand that these accidents occur, particularly in such a dynamic and fluid war zone. It would have been very satisfactory for them to come clean, take some responsibility, and cooperate with investigators. When the Americans shot down Iran Air that is what they did. They admitted it. Pentagon officials came out and stated that one of their ships mistakenly engaged and shot down an airliner and they promised they would investigate the incident and cooperate with investigation teams from the regulatory bodies of other countries. I am not sure if that included Iran.

There was an incident where the Australian Prime Minister offered to show Putin satellite imagery of troop and equipment movements and also the trajectory of their missile at the G20.

I wasn’t there so I can’t comment on what your Prime minister showed Putin. Troop movements? The satellite pictures I have seen so far have all been movements inside Russia! As Lavrof said a few days age ‘How dare Russia have the affront to have its borders so close to NATO’s military! I believe the location of the ‘trajectory’ satellite pictures were ‘questionable’ as they had no GPS info?

I could be wrong but as soon as a missile is fired, the trajectory is tracked by a number of Satellites from quite a number of Countries. They can usually pin point the launch area to within a number of meters.

I am not aware of what Putin was shown, but during the G20 there was a confrontation between the 2 with the Australian PM telling Putin that there is no question that Russia had shot down the Airliner and that they have evidence.

Russia knows our capabilities and only moves troops in small numbers within Ukrainian borders. They adapt their warfare.

We have the iPhone pictures from field agents as well, but that is not the evidence I talk about. I am talking about the Satellite Imagery.

Which has yet to be released! The same with the secret (‘if- I- told- you - I- would- have- to- kill- you’) Ukie ATC/RADAR records, the flight recorders Voice and Data, the disappearance of the Spanish ATC guy who ‘Tweeted’ a minute-by-minute account of events as they took place. Nothing released by the Ukrainians has any credibility and all we get from the US is silence.

No these photos have been released by Ukrainian Intelligence. Some field agents followed the launcher as it retreated back to Russia with one missile missing. Make of that what you will.

It was the Ethnic Russians who were causing a lot of insurrection.

I think if my home and family were threatened by a bunch of thugs who clearly had it ‘in-for-me’, I would’ insurrect’ as well.

Yes we are aware that the Russians have provided sterile "evidence" on the downing of MH17.

Why sterile, that demonstrates bias? It was presented a few days after the event! So far the west has failed to reciprocate ….. as you point out ‘can’t be published’ presumably to protect the US’s National Security? Whereas the Russians would not have had the time to ‘cook-the-books’, the five months since has given the west ample opportunity to ‘modify’ or ‘lose’ any inconvenient evidence. Even if the US released its data now it would be regarded with suspicion by any sensible person. Believe me, if they had the evidence the whole world would know about it!

Oh they cooked the books alright. They did not provide any evidence to prove that they did not shoot down MH17.

They also contaminated the crash site and did not permit investigation teams access and when they did arrive they had to leave for safety concerns.

We are not talking about National Security here but a surveillance apparatus known as Echelon and which Britain is also a participant. As soon as a missile is launched, they know about it. Why? Because they want to know if they are to launch an ICBM. As soon as they detect one of these flying, the Americans will prepare to launch as well. Nasty stuff but that's the way it is.

(The BUK vapour trail) That does not surprise me,. it was also very overcast!

Wrong many witnesses, even those on the BBC Russian Service report from the site, saw the aircraft from the ground, but not one of them mentioned a vapour trail. Proved by weather reports …. there were some local patches of cloud, it was not overcast. The BBC video was also pulled from their site, which says it obviously did not conform with the ‘official’ story. The latest videos also show that it was almost a clear blue sky at the time.

Why would you notice a Vapour trail when you don't even expect to see one?

What are you saying? MH17 did not crash from a missile?

And yours (opinion) seem to mirror Global Research which has its own agenda

.

I don’t think Global Research has an agenda as such, it may have a bias to report news not found on the MSM but that is no bad thing. As I said, all of these are available on a whole host of independent news sites. I chose GR because it is easy to follow, quick to find what is of interest and well laid out. It is only a collection point for independent journalists to publish reports that would otherwise not see the light of day and has no editorial control over what articles published present ……….. they also publish reports found in New York Times, The Guardian, The Independent etc………. and even The Daily Mail!!!

You questioned my news sources and I believe you should look into Global Research with a bit more subjectivity. They do have a clear bias. Maybe they have no agenda but there is a definite anti west/American flavour and where they come up with their facts God only knows. I don't regard them as a reliable source but I do find their articles interesting and I might read one or 2 for fun but I don't regard them as news.

I don't regard many other so called mainstream papers as news either and England has a few.

I really got a problem with your sources. The reason why I have a problem is because every single piece seems to have a very clear anti American focus. There is no balance at all. So when you talk about the CNN, BBC etc - at least they don't go all out to bash on Russia at every opportunity and with such vitriolic and unsubstantiated sensationalist rubbish!

I find Russia/Putin bashing/bias the basis of most MSM reports! I don’t have a problem with Putin being found guilty but ……let us at least see the evidence and have a proper independent investigation as the Russians have called for over-and-over again, before we execute him and turn Russia into a nuclear waste land? I am sorry but the’ vitriol and unsubstantiated sensational rubbish’ seems to be the reserve of the MSM. If you read/listen to the Russians …. unlike the US and its allies, they never make threats! Their dialogue gives warnings and advises but they just act without resorting to threats.

If you go back a couple of years, they were singing Putin praises.

There is no agenda to bash on them. They have invaded Ukraine, an action condemned all over the world. They also shot down MH17 so you can imagine the outrage in Holland, Malaysia, Australia and UK.

Yes during every Air Crash the experts seem to come out of the wood work. Now let me ask you this. What would an airline pilot know about Missile Fragments from a Russian Air defence system? Bugger all!

I agree! But as an engineer who has actually worked on a war damaged plant that has been attacked from the air with various ordnance, I can assure you that the holes in MH17’s fuselage in the photo’s were from cannon fire! I have seen dozens of the same holes in cable ducting, control panels, sheeting/cladding and tanks, to recognise what they were. I have also seen damage by shrapnel form bombs/rockets and it is very different.

MH17 was at FL370. There is no cannon that has that kind of range.

The BUK has a proximity detonator. The missile detonates automatically when it gets to within a certain range of it's target. It is the shockwave and the shrapnel which destroy the target aircraft.

They don't just Bash on the US for the sake of it and at every opportunity, they back their articles up with evidence which is very often left off MSM reports on most occasions and they then leave the rest to the readers opinion. This often shows that MSM reports are selective in what they present to the public. You will find what is reported in the MSM repeated on sites such as GR but the journalists fill in all the missing bits. These independent types are not limited by an editor who allots them so many column inches, some of these reports are several thousand words and contain many graphs, tables, links, quotes and of course photos.

I also believe the pragmatic approach, at least for me, is to read as much as you can about a subject from various sources and form an opinion based simply on the levels of probability. I don’t think these sites ‘bash the US’ they just say it as it is. Take just MH17 ……. the MSM do not cover the evidence you regard as ’sterile’ as it provides balance and without this the whole story is horribly biased!

RH,

I have read about MH340 and MH17 from many angles and usually from professional networks. I have a background.

As such I can smell the nonsense from a long way. I cringe at the stupid reporting from mainstream media. As a qualified person, you would have noticed many times when they just come up with absolute rubbish. What is frustrating is that people actually believe their so called experts. One network which I found to be the most reliable was actually CNN. I found that their journalists actually dotted their I's and crossed their T's when they covered MH340. So many others were frustrating.

But if Global Research wrote that MH17 was shot down by a cannon, then I am sorry but it is not something you can take seriously. They were out of range of cannons and Manpads an there was an airways advisory to stay above FL300.

[Robin Hood]

What is interesting is the fact that no one ever accused the Russians of deliberately shooting down MH17.

The Ukies have! They said the Russians were targeting a Russian tourist flight bound for Larnaca, so that they could blame the Ukies! But that didn’t fit because that flight was the following day. Oooop’s ….. if you are going to tell lies you have to get the facts right and the Ukrainians have proved to be very bad at that!

No these photos have been released by Ukrainian Intelligence. Some field agents followed the launcher as it retreated back to Russia with one missile missing. Make of that what you will.

I remember the photos but (without checking) I seem to remember that the hoarding that was caught in the photo showed that the vehicle was in an area occupied at the time by Ukraine forces. Then more photos came out showing it on the back of a low loader allegedly heading for the border but this time covered with a tarpaulin. On the other hand …….there are also Russian satellite pictures complete with GPS data , actually showing the full set up, including the Command and Control vehicle (without which the BUK is pretty useless) surrounded by people in Ukraine Army uniforms.

They (Russia) did not provide any evidence to prove that they did not shoot down MH17.

You cannot prove a negative! It is up to the accusers to prove they did do it.

They also contaminated the crash site and did not permit investigation teams access and when they did arrive they had to leave for safety concerns

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The OECD inspector first on the site actually commended the rebels for their help but, said there were some problems on the first day. You can guess at some NCO faced with foreigners walking onto the site ….. he needed permission from a higher rank before he could let them proceed. It was this inspector who initially told the rebels not to remove the bodies until they had been photographically recorded. But the Ukraine Army then started shelling the area and the inspectors left. For obvious reasons the rebels then set too to photograph, then recover as many bodies as possible and got them the 15 miles to the nearest town where they had refrigerated railway cars waiting. They did not deliberately contaminate the site, although they may have done so not being professionals and ‘just trying to help’. This was all covered in an OECD report. It was Poroshenko and his goons that attacked the site to drive the rebels out. Or was it because the Ukies wanted to get at the evidence before the inspection team?

If ‘a surveillance apparatus known as Echelon’ is so well known, what is the problem of releasing the relevant photos showing at what time and at what location this BUK missile was launched. The Russians have data they have released of a flurry of intense RADAR activity of the type used by the (Russian designed) BUK system around the time of the attack, but no record of a launch. Maybe the US et al will not release the data because there is nothing to see?

Why would you notice a Vapour trail when you don't even expect to see one? What are you saying MH17 did not crash from a missile?

If you watch a video on YouTube of a BUK launch, you will see what I mean. It is not a mere wisp it is a dense and continuous, white column and would have gone right up to where MH17 had been and not in a straight line, because it uses ground radar for the first part of its flight and then switches to its own internal system…….. but, it has never been reported or photographed by anyone. This is very strange …….. if I had been a witness, it would have been the first thing I would have noticed as I looked up to see where all this burning debris was coming from. IMO: Simple common sense? I think there is a high degree of probability that a BUK missile did not bring down MH17!

They have invaded Ukraine, an action condemned all over the world. They also shot down MH17 so you can imagine the outrage in Holland, Malaysia, Australia and UK?

Show me the evidence to support an invasion. (appart from the illegality of leaving their base in Sevastopol)? Again, when I see the irrefutable proof that the west (Kerry) has said they have regarding the downing of MH17, which is independently verified (more important now because of the time since it happened) then I may change my opinion. But to date everything available, that is verifiable says Russia was not to blame, neither were the rebels and that the finger points very definitely at the Ukies. BTW: Malaysia has not been included in the DSB investigation team.

MH17 was at FL370. There is no cannon that has that kind of range.

(FL33 I think?) Radar records show a military aircraft closing on MH17 from behind and climbing rapidly. It was defined as ‘military’ because it gave no transponder response and IFF is not available to civilian ATC RADAR. It was civilian RADAR data the Russians provided. Whilst it was initially claimed that a SU-25(?) could not reach that height, this was disproved. The limitation was that the pilot needed oxygen at that altitude. Get within a thousand or so meters and a cannon can be a devastating weapon especially as those used on this aircraft are for destroying armour and are thus explosive.

The BUK has a proximity detonator. The missile detonates automatically when it gets to within a certain range of it's target. It is the shockwave and the shrapnel which destroy the target aircraft.

True. It is also designed to explode above the target (apparently?).

But if Global Research wrote that MY17 was shot down by a cannon, then I am sorry but it is not something you can take seriously. They were out of range of cannons and Manpads and there was an airways advisory to sat above FL300

They could if they were attached to a Ukranian SU-25 aircraft which, for a short period at least, was well capable of reaching that altitude.

When the Americans shot down Iran Air …….. They (US) admitted it. Pentagon officials came out and stated that one of their ships mistakenly engaged and shot down an airliner.

Initially the captain of the USS Vicennes claimed his crew though it was a military jet descending very rapidly to attack the ship. They later corrected that statement, gave him a medal for outstanding service and either retired him or moved him sideways. But at least they did give compensation to the victim’s families but never admitted their error and never compensated Iran Air for the lost aircraft.

If you have not done so … read the first link. I was not aware of there being two investigations. One to determine cause so that it does not happen again, the other is a criminal investigation to identify as far as is possible the likely perpetrator. The DSB one we read about but the JIT investigation is not mentioned anywhere ….even on Global Research,......... except in this reference to such an investigation.

Mh17 fascinates me as there is a conflict of scenarios but no real proof to substantiate the claims of the US/EU/ Ukraine that the Russians/rebels are in any way involved but the counter claims are rarely commented on in the MSM. It was this incident that provoked the sanctions! CUI BONO?

[Get Real!]

They did not provide any evidence to prove that they did not shoot down MH17.

...during the G20 there was a confrontation between the 2 with the Australian PM telling Putin that there is no question that Russia had shot down the Airliner and that they have evidence.

Was that before or after he was handing out a koala?

Re maimouna dis dekaras...

[Paphitis]

What is interesting is the fact that no one ever accused the Russians of deliberately shooting down MH17.

The Ukies have! They said the Russians were targeting a Russian tourist flight bound for Larnaca, so that they could blame the Ukies! But that didn’t fit because that flight was the following day. Oooop’s ….. if you are going to tell lies you have to get the facts right and the Ukrainians have proved to be very bad at that!

The Ukrainians can do what they like. In all likelihood, it was a case of mistaken identity and that MH17 was shot accidentally. We are not accusing the Russians of a War Crime. it would be very difficult to prove and we do not believe the Russians shot it down deliberately. Can't imagine anyone deliberately shooting down an airliner other than perhaps the North Koreans.

No these photos have been released by Ukrainian Intelligence. Some field agents followed the launcher as it retreated back to Russia with one missile missing. Make of that what you will.

I remember the photos but (without checking) I seem to remember that the hoarding that was caught in the photo showed that the vehicle was in an area occupied at the time by Ukraine forces. Then more photos came out showing it on the back of a low loader allegedly heading for the border but this time covered with a tarpaulin. On the other hand …….there are also Russian satellite pictures complete with GPS data , actually showing the full set up, including the Command and Control vehicle (without which the BUK is pretty useless) surrounded by people in Ukraine Army uniforms.

No it was in the vicinity of where MH17 was shot down. They also photographed it in 3 towns and villages at the time and then followed it as it was retreating back into Russia.

The Russian Satellite data is not accurate. of course they are going to provide sterile data. We have our own satellite date to go by. And there is lots of it from many countries including Japan, China, Holland, France and of course Echelon.

They (Russia) did not provide any evidence to prove that they did not shoot down MH17.

You cannot prove a negative! It is up to the accusers to prove they did do it.

Well maybe the Russians need to prove that it was the Ukrainians that did it over territory they occupy. The Ukrainians had no equipment in the area or within range to shoot down MH17.

They also contaminated the crash site and did not permit investigation teams access and when they did arrive they had to leave for safety concerns

.

The OECD inspector first on the site actually commended the rebels for their help but, said there were some problems on the first day. You can guess at some NCO faced with foreigners walking onto the site ….. he needed permission from a higher rank before he could let them proceed. It was this inspector who initially told the rebels not to remove the bodies until they had been photographically recorded. But the Ukraine Army then started shelling the area and the inspectors left. For obvious reasons the rebels then set too to photograph, then recover as many bodies as possible and got them the 15 miles to the nearest town where they had refrigerated railway cars waiting. They did not deliberately contaminate the site, although they may have done so not being professionals and ‘just trying to help’. This was all covered in an OECD report. It was Poroshenko and his goons that attacked the site to drive the rebels out. Or was it because the Ukies wanted to get at the evidence before the inspection team?

That was on the first day of arriving on site. There was a delay of a number of days before they got there and after the first day they had to get out of their and only ever had restricyed access,. no one was commending the rebels then.

If ‘a surveillance apparatus known as Echelon’ is so well known, what is the problem of releasing the relevant photos showing at what time and at what location this BUK missile was launched. The Russians have data they have released of a flurry of intense RADAR activity of the type used by the (Russian designed) BUK system around the time of the attack, but no record of a launch. Maybe the US et al will not release the data because there is nothing to see?

I don't know why. I can only imagine that Echelon is extremely covert and they are not particularly interested in scoring points against Russia over an Airliner Incident. It's far too valuable. They have indeed released information regarding troop movements to NATO.

Why would you notice a Vapour trail when you don't even expect to see one? What are you saying MH17 did not crash from a missile?

If you watch a video on YouTube of a BUK launch, you will see what I mean. It is not a mere wisp it is a dense and continuous, white column and would have gone right up to where MH17 had been and not in a straight line, because it uses ground radar for the first part of its flight and then switches to its own internal system…….. but, it has never been reported or photographed by anyone. This is very strange …….. if I had been a witness, it would have been the first thing I would have noticed as I looked up to see where all this burning debris was coming from. IMO: Simple common sense? I think there is a high degree of probability that a BUK missile did not bring down MH17!

I also know that this will depend on the air density and dryness of the atmosphere. There are instances where there are no contrails at all, and further to this you would only have about 10 seconds to see it, after which you can forget it.

The likelihood of it being photographed is next to nil.

They have invaded Ukraine, an action condemned all over the world. They also shot down MH17 so you can imagine the outrage in Holland, Malaysia, Australia and UK?

Show me the evidence to support an invasion. (appart from the illegality of leaving their base in Sevastopol)? Again, when I see the irrefutable proof that the west (Kerry) has said they have regarding the downing of MH17, which is independently verified (more important now because of the time since it happened) then I may change my opinion. But to date everything available, that is verifiable says Russia was not to blame, neither were the rebels and that the finger points very definitely at the Ukies. BTW: Malaysia has not been included in the DSB investigation team.

There is a lot of evidence. Most of the so called rebels are in fact Russian Soldiers. Their Leader is a Russian officer. A lot of intelligence has been released about his identity.

MH17 was at FL370. There is no cannon that has that kind of range.

(FL33 I think?) Radar records show a military aircraft closing on MH17 from behind and climbing rapidly. It was defined as ‘military’ because it gave no transponder response and IFF is not available to civilian ATC RADAR. It was civilian RADAR data the Russians provided. Whilst it was initially claimed that a SU-25(?) could not reach that height, this was disproved. The limitation was that the pilot needed oxygen at that altitude. Get within a thousand or so meters and a cannon can be a devastating weapon especially as those used on this aircraft are for destroying armour and are thus explosive.

And the military aircraft was Russian Airforce. The Russians only provided Civilian Radar- therefore, only that there was a military aircraft, it's approximate level and it's approximate speed. There was no IFF and the Russians do have Military radar in the area which would have identified the identity. Why not provide that? because they are being smart arses that's why!

The BUK has a proximity detonator. The missile detonates automatically when it gets to within a certain range of it's target. It is the shockwave and the shrapnel which destroy the target aircraft.

True. It is also designed to explode above the target (apparently?).

Probably. I don't know this, all I know is that it has a proximity detonator.

But if Global Research wrote that MY17 was shot down by a cannon, then I am sorry but it is not something you can take seriously. They were out of range of cannons and Manpads and there was an airways advisory to sat above FL300

They could if they were attached to a Ukranian SU-25 aircraft which, for a short period at least, was well capable of reaching that altitude.

The Russians will need to provide evidence of this from their Military Radar installations.

When the Americans shot down Iran Air …….. They (US) admitted it. Pentagon officials came out and stated that one of their ships mistakenly engaged and shot down an airliner.

Initially the captain of the USS Vicennes claimed his crew though it was a military jet descending very rapidly to attack the ship. They later corrected that statement, gave him a medal for outstanding service and either retired him or moved him sideways. But at least they did give compensation to the victim’s families but never admitted their error and never compensated Iran Air for the lost aircraft.

the retired him. It was a forced retirement from my understanding.

Yes they did pay compensation and they admitted wrong doing very quickly and were most cooperative after the incident despite the international outrage and very bad publicity.

That is all we expected from Russia as well. You can't be too critical when there is a preparedness to accept responsibility and I remind you that there has been no accusation of a war Crime. We all know it was an accident. We do not expect anyone to have deliberately targeted the Airliner.

If you have not done so … read the first link. I was not aware of there being two investigations. One to determine cause so that it does not happen again, the other is a criminal investigation to identify as far as is possible the likely perpetrator. The DSB one we read about but the JIT investigation is not mentioned anywhere ….even on Global Research,......... except in this reference to such an investigation.

Mh17 fascinates me as there is a conflict of scenarios but no real proof to substantiate the claims of the US/EU/ Ukraine that the Russians/rebels are in any way involved but the counter claims are rarely commented on in the MSM. It was this incident that provoked the sanctions! CUI BONO?

These occur concurrently with every Airline Crash.

Don't be so sure about the proof either. The Dutch Investigation Team will be able to prove who actually shot it down and they will be getting the evidence to support this as well. We have about a year to wait for the final report.

[Paphitis]

They did not provide any evidence to prove that they did not shoot down MH17.

...during the G20 there was a confrontation between the 2 with the Australian PM telling Putin that there is no question that Russia had shot down the Airliner and that they have evidence.

Was that before or after he was handing out a koala?

Re maimouna dis dekaras...

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