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this voting procedure?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Agios Amvrosios » Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:32 am

Eric Dacy said

he is just not worth it in my view to waste any more time on this subject


It should be noted that Piratis views are generally the views of the almost all cypriots except for the 5 or 6 who voted for the Annan Plan. You shoould therefore attempt to address the issues he is raising. Saying its a waste of your precious time will does not progress your agenda in fact it detracts from it by making you like like you cannot focus on key issues.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:08 am

Agios Amvrosios wrote:Eric Dacy said

he is just not worth it in my view to waste any more time on this subject


It should be noted that Piratis views are generally the views of the almost all cypriots except for the 5 or 6 who voted for the Annan Plan. You shoould therefore attempt to address the issues he is raising. Saying its a waste of your precious time will does not progress your agenda in fact it detracts from it by making you like like you cannot focus on key issues.


God help us.... :roll:
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Re: this voting procedure?

Postby sadik » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:30 am

cypezokyli wrote:this was proposed sometime ago (i guess by alexandros). anyway i dont claim the property rights of the idea :wink:, but since i liked it i would like to bring it up once again.

it works like that. both communities keep the power of the veto in some form (two co-president, rotating presidency, equal representation in upper house and any other you can imagine). i take the copresidents as means of simplicity.
each president will be elected by both communities, but the weight of the other community will be significantly less. so for the gc president, the gc votes will count for 75% and the tc for 25% (you can choose any number, 70-30, 66 - 33 etc) and the same for the tc president.

the advantages that i see in this voting system are
:
1. a copresident elected only by his community will inevtably try to promise as much as possible to his own community - usually at the expense of the other community. in this way the candidates will be forced to take into consideration the opinion of their compatriots, and.... who knows? perhaps force them to realise that they are elected to rule cyprus and not just their community

2. it could force gc and tc parties to force alliances and cooperate

3. its a way of lowering signifigantly the represantation of nationalist parties in the central goverment. moreover such parties will start realising that the should start approaching the others if they would ever try to succeed.

so what do you think ?

or would it be some critisism of the kind:
- another cunning gc idea to reduce the tc into a minority and take control of us

or

- it is not enough you give the tcs disproportionate veto powers you want turkey to take control our side as well? or increase the power of the gc give-iners?


Hi Cypezokyli,

I think the main problem with this proposal is that it dilutes the principle of bicommunality. I think it's important that we keep the bicommunal aspect of the restructured RoC so we can have a functional federation at the local level with minimum or no limitation for settlement and property ownership.

The best way to achieve bicommunality, I believe, is to have a TC vice president with veto powers. There should be power sharing in all RoC institutions. We should construct a parliamentary system as much as possible to enable cooperation between the sides in the parliament, not a pure presidential one. Other proposals such as a senate, rotating presidency and a presidential council makes things more complex than we need and introduces and extra levels of complexity.

Things are not what they used to be in Cyprus. Everyone do understand that a settlement in Cyprus is the final destination and it's not a tool to achieve something else. There is an increased level of prosperity in both communities. The prosperity will further increase in a reunited Cyprus. Economic interdependence will keep us together, like it keeps the whole Europe together. Neither TCs nor the GCs cannot afford to act in a crazy way any more.

In the issue of settlers that Piratis raised, even if all the settlers stay in Cyprus and get voting rights, their percentage in the TC population will be somewhere between 20-25%. They will not have the power to block anything themselves.
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:10 am

thanks sadik.
i knew that i was plying with sth sensitive :roll:
. my purpose was : not as such diluting bicommunality but perhaps an increase in the cypriotness and the interdependance of the two communities. as i said the veto should not be removed -as our past has shown ,that that leads to no solution. and if we take the examples of co-presidents (that i also prefer), in practise it doesnt mean that for every decision the copresident should go to elections and ask both communities. in a way it gives both communities the ability to influence the choise of the other copresident / as well as his actions.

The best way to achieve bicommunality, I believe, is to have a TC vice president with veto powers. There should be power sharing in all RoC institutions. We should construct a parliamentary system as much as possible to enable cooperation between the sides in the parliament, not a pure presidential one.


do you believe that the parliamentary system itself can increase the cooperation ? well u mention the economic interdependance...and thats indeed a point, but do you think its enough?

thats what i also saw in this proposal. its a kind of stick and carrot. they will need each other to be reelected and force them to satisfy the other.

how about we pass a law, forcing any candidate (after lets say20 years) for presidency or parliament to be bilingual? its stupid, but to a certain extent i believe we need a push to cooperate :wink:

Everyone do understand that a settlement in Cyprus is the final destination and it's not a tool to achieve something else. There is an increased level of prosperity in both communities. The prosperity will further increase in a reunited Cyprus. Economic interdependence will keep us together, like it keeps the whole Europe together. Neither TCs nor the GCs cannot afford to act in a crazy way any more.


totally agree. i also believe that this time if we sign a solution we are at least going to give it a try, and that we ll understand that no-decision will always cost more than a good bargain. the problem with these things is that they have gained a symbolic meaning. its like the small number of soldiers. its not that they would prove dangerous , especially in an EU country, but they just cause security to one sides head and insecurity to the others.
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Postby Maria28 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:48 pm

I like the idea.

This is a good way to force politicians to think for the good of all Cypriots and not just the good of their own communities.
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Postby Tony-4497 » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:55 pm

I get puzzled and concerned when I read things like these.

People around the world have made huge struggles for years in order to gain their independence and self-determination. Bright ideas like the one above suggest that WE should give this up and try to put ourselves in a situation where we will need the approval of effectively Turkey (through its settlers and the always-obedient 18% TC minority) for pretty much everything we do!!!

How can you seriously propose this?! Especially considering that (a) we have tried this (i.e. complex power sharing) already in the 60s and it failed in a huge and bloody way (b) proved that if left on our own and without all the inter-communal conflict (i.e. see post-74) we can achieve huge prosperity and development (fact), (c) 76% rejected the Annan plan and (d) this model has never worked anywhere in the world.

Such ideas are irresponsible and dangerous for Cyprus.. but I do know there are a few people who share them.. and a few politicians (see Papapetrou and a few from DiSy and Akel-thankfully ones that almost noone takes seriously).. I just hope that any future proposed solution will need to be approved at a referendum, coz otherwise such idealistic and utterly naive ideas might turn Cyprus into a new Yugoslavia, if somehow accepted as a solution.
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:36 am

people around the world made struggles for independance tony.
we made struggles for enosis.
and when we got it we didnt like it.actually people at the time couldnt understand why while all the world fought for independance we fought for enosis.
(a) we have tried this (i.e. complex power sharing) already in the 60s and it failed in a huge and bloody way

no tony. it didnt fail. we failed.and the more i read about the topic, the more i realise how many suicidal mistakes we did, the more i believe that any proposed solution is the result of the actions of our heroic leaders

(b) proved that if left on our own and without all the inter-communal conflict (i.e. see post-74) we can achieve huge prosperity and development (fact),

the prosperity was not a result of us being left alone. give me one study, one magazine ine newspaper that ever claimed that.
you argument is as good as the theory of the mini skirt. put together on the same graph, the US economy from 1945 till 1960 and the length of the womens skirts there exist a clear correlation . conclusion: the better the economy the shorter the skirts. your argument would convince even a first year student.

76% rejected the Annan plan

blablabla

this model has never worked anywhere in the world.

which model? the proposed voting sytem? where was it applied?
Such ideas are irresponsible and dangerous for Cyprus

we have seen the responsible leadership achievements up to now
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Postby Tony-4497 » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:47 pm

(a) we have tried this (i.e. complex power sharing) already in the 60s and it failed in a huge and bloody way

no tony. it didnt fail. we failed.and the more i read about the topic, the more i realise how many suicidal mistakes we did, the more i believe that any proposed solution is the result of the actions of our heroic leaders


i don't really care about who or what failed.. the fact is that it did and it can fail again.. you should read today's newspapers in Cy, which include graphic descriptions of various attorcities carried out in the 60s and 70s (group executions and all), which were effectively a result of fights over power sharing in Cyprus. I don't want my children to run the risk of going through this, just because you and a few others naively think it's a noble idea to start experimenting with co-presidents, vetos and what have you.

Quote:
(b) proved that if left on our own and without all the inter-communal conflict (i.e. see post-74) we can achieve huge prosperity and development (fact),

the prosperity was not a result of us being left alone. give me one study, one magazine ine newspaper that ever claimed that.
you argument is as good as the theory of the mini skirt. put together on the same graph, the US economy from 1945 till 1960 and the length of the womens skirts there exist a clear correlation . conclusion: the better the economy the shorter the skirts. your argument would convince even a first year student.


i will resist the many mini-skirt jokes in my head.. but you are funny.. are you seriously suggesting that the political situation in a country has no impact on the economy?? do you know what kind of country premia investors apply in evaluating investments in countries with political risk & instability?? how can tourism develop properly in a country with internal conflict?? (just look at what's happening in our region and you'll get the answer).. as for newspapers etc I have seen it mentioned many times that the end of intercommunal fighting has contributed to the economic development of the free part of the RoC - I won't bother trying to find sources as it is bleeding obvious.. even to a first year pupil at primary school

Quote:
76% rejected the Annan plan

blablabla


correct.. that is all that can be said when one runs out of arguments

Quote:
this model has never worked anywhere in the world.

which model? the proposed voting sytem? where was it applied?


Precisely - nowhere! ..but you think it would be fun for Greek Cypriots to become guiney pigs in your little power sharing experiment.. I don't.

Quote:

Such ideas are irresponsible and dangerous for Cyprus

we have seen the responsible leadership achievements up to now


We have seen 2 things: First, leaders such as Vasiliou, Clerides, Anastasiades & Co secretly accepting all the outrageous provisions of the Annan plan and then blackmailing the GC people to accept it or else disaster will come..

Second, the above leaders being ridiculed as 1. The people completely ignored them and 2. They were proven entirely wrong by the facts - GC are now in a position to negotiate a much better solution. Anastasiades has shown that his political judgement is dangerous for Cyprus.

Tassos's leadership has helped rescue the RoC and will lead to an acceptable solution if continued.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:14 pm

You go for it Tony-4497 continue to support Tassos the man who has got you nowhere fast. If you want more of the same continue to support his vision which is currently driving us more and more towards recognized division. I support him as well, Im sure you can work out why?
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:52 pm

i don't really care about who or what failed.. the fact is that it did and it can fail again.. you should read today's newspapers in Cy, which include graphic descriptions of various attorcities carried out in the 60s and 70s (group executions and all), which were effectively a result of fights over power sharing in Cyprus. I don't want my children to run the risk of going through this, just because you and a few others naively think it's a noble idea to start experimenting with co-presidents, vetos and what have you.


i am not surprised that you dont really care tony, and thats why we dont learn from our mistakes.
i explained you a thousand times that 1963 was a different situation.

proved that if left on our own and without all the inter-communal conflict (i.e. see post-74) we can achieve huge prosperity and development (fact),

are you seriously suggesting that the political situation in a country has no impact on the economy


tony i never said that political stability doesnt affect the economy.
but i hope you understand the difference between political stability and the "being left alone". as if our greek interpeunertial spirit works only when we are alone. two different things things tony. dont confuse them.


as for the anan plan...
take a tour in the forum just to the no-voters and you will realise why each voted no. others bc of the refuggees did not return. others for the power sharing.
some hoping for a better solution.
others hoping for partition
others wanting a union with greece.
others believe akel decision was the most decicive reason.
others the mass media propaganda
the 76% shows one thousand different things. depending on what one believes.



We have seen 2 things: First, leaders such as Vasiliou, Clerides, Anastasiades & Co secretly accepting all the outrageous provisions of the Annan plan and then blackmailing the GC people to accept it or else disaster will come..

Second, the above leaders being ridiculed as 1. The people completely ignored them and 2. They were proven entirely wrong by the facts - GC are now in a position to negotiate a much better solution. Anastasiades has shown that his political judgement is dangerous for Cyprus.

Tassos's leadership has helped rescue the RoC and will lead to an acceptable solution if continued.

the great leader in 1960 was against the RoC. recently he said it was th best thing we ever had.

conclusion 1 : thats a predictive ability or what ?
conclusion 2: the constitution of the RoC included tc veto.

even more papadopoulos in his international speaches at least, he accepts the ideas of BBF.

do you know what people say concerning 1948 ? a lost opportunity that we rejected
do you know what people say about 1956 ? a lost opportunity, which we chose to reject in order to make a struggle and get less.
do you know what people say about the constitution of the RoC ? i just told you the opinion of our wise leader. unless u want to challange his wisdom.

but i asked you before : in a power sharing system what causes the bloodshed ? give me the mechanism that moves from the one to the other. i am still waiting...
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