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The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:16 am

Maximus wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:The "TC" community refused equality and democracy.


No we refused to have imposed on us the gifting of our shared homeland to foreign rule. Cyprus only exists today as an independent state, all be it one still riven by division, because of that refusal.


You live in a foreign boot camp.

C'mon, I swear "God" has a sick sense of humour!


I thought you didnt believe in god !


And with such shit you do?
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Maximus » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:20 am

But I don't understand what you mean by "unitary Cypriot people". We are two ethnic groups, different languages, different religions living on the same island. Was there a "unitary Cypriot people" during British rule? During Ottoman rule? Or is this thing something newly invented... or not yet invented and you want to create it?


Its clearly something newly invented.

The unitary cypriot people are those people who pre date the ottomans and who have been pushed south by the turks.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Maximus » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:23 am

Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:The "TC" community refused equality and democracy.


No we refused to have imposed on us the gifting of our shared homeland to foreign rule. Cyprus only exists today as an independent state, all be it one still riven by division, because of that refusal.


You live in a foreign boot camp.

C'mon, I swear "God" has a sick sense of humour!


I thought you didnt believe in god !


And with such shit you do?


I suppose. Even Jesus Christ was crucified.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Paphitis » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:28 am

Yes but let's not compare ourselves to Jesus Christ now.

There are members here who do not live by the teachings of Jesus Christ and to be specific, I am talking about the rotten scoundrels that come to this forum to gloat over their ill gotten gains and the illegal occupation to the detriment of all peace loving people.

The TCs here can only be compared to Judas but at least Judas had the decency to display regret and guilt for his actions by necking himself!
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Maximus » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:33 am

Paphitis wrote:Yes but let's not compare ourselves to Jesus Christ now.

There are members here who do not live by the teachings of Jesus Christ and to be specific, I am talking about the rotten scoundrels that come to this forum to gloat over their ill gotten gains and the illegal occupation to the detriment of all peace loving people.

The TCs here can only be compared to Judas but at least Judas had the decency to display regret and guilt for his actions by necking himself!


Judas? More like Lucifer mate....
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:43 am

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:The "TC" community refused equality and democracy.


No we refused to have imposed on us the gifting of our shared homeland to foreign rule.


You refused the democratic rights of 80% of the country. Why is that right? So that now Turkey can occupy what it wants?

And, according to your dictatorial impositions, this 80% has now "gifted" Cyprus to enosis with not only Greece but the rest of Europe and with it will come the removal of the Turks - democracy and right will win in the end, no matter what you refuse us at the moment.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby erolz66 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:48 am

Sotos wrote: What we said is lets have a referendum so we can democratically decide. Like the ones they had in Falklands, Gibraltar, Scotland etc. It was rejected!


You can not validly decide as and in the name of a unitary single group that the only thing that would or could make us a single unitary group does not and will not exist. You can validly decide as a single unitary group (Cypriots) anything about Cyprus except if Cyprus will exist as an independent entity or not. Once you say Cyprus will not exist as an independent entity, because you do not think you are Cypriots but think you are Greeks who live in Cyprus, then you make us something other than you.

Sotos wrote:Erolz, what you would personally forgo is irrelevant... who has the power on your side is Turkey, not you personally... and in fact enosis is not something which is wanted anymore so if that was the issue then we would have come to an agreement long ago.


The desire for enosis is today no longer wanted by a majority of GC,, I accept that. However the principal that says should GC want to end the existence of Cyprus as an independent entity , they can validly do so in the name of a unitary Cypriot people, even though they seek to destroy that very thing that makes us a unitary people - this idea is very much alive, as you yourself demonstrate. When all GC want something and only GC want it , it because they are NOT acting as Cypriots that includes us as well it is because they are acting as Greeks. If you can accept if and when you choose to act as Greeks we get a separate voice as people who share the same homeland and that are not Greek then we have no problem. But you refuse to accept this. You demand the right to act purely as Greeks who live on Cyprus but insist when you do so you are in fact just expressing the will of a unitary Cypriot people. It is bunkum. It was bunkum then and it remains bunkum now.

Sotos wrote: But I don't understand what you mean by "unitary Cypriot people". We are two ethnic groups, different languages, different religions living on the same island. Was there a "unitary Cypriot people" during British rule? During Ottoman rule? Or is this thing something newly invented... or not yet invented and you want to create it?


There is either something that binds us together that is stronger than our differences (being Cypriot) or there is not. If there is not then we are two separate and different people and division is near inevitable. We could and can choose to create a Cypriot identity that would bind us together but we have to date failed to do so. The only hope for the future is to do so as far as I am concerned.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby erolz66 » Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:02 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote: You refused the democratic rights of 80% of the country. Why is that right?


Here you have said it yourself. It can not be the democratic right of a COUNTRY when the thing that the 80% want is the non existence of that very COUNTRY. You simply can not claim with any legitimacy that enosis is the valid will and democratic right of a unitary Cypriot people and country because enosis says there is no such thing as a unitary Cypriot people and country. That you tried to claim this as a means of imposing enosis on TC without any regard for their will as people who shared Cyprus with you as a homeland and who were not Greek , and failed should have taught you something but you have learnt nothing from the mistakes of the past and insist on repeating them.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby Sotos » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:35 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: What we said is lets have a referendum so we can democratically decide. Like the ones they had in Falklands, Gibraltar, Scotland etc. It was rejected!


You can not validly decide as and in the name of a unitary single group that the only thing that would or could make us a single unitary group does not and will not exist. You can validly decide as a single unitary group (Cypriots) anything about Cyprus except if Cyprus will exist as an independent entity or not. Once you say Cyprus will not exist as an independent entity, because you do not think you are Cypriots but think you are Greeks who live in Cyprus, then you make us something other than you.


That way of thinking sounds like the "No true Scotsman Fallacy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman What you are saying is basically: "No true Cypriot will not want Cyprus to exist as an independent entity. If you don't want Cyprus to exist as independent entity this means you are not true Cypriots". Funnily enough the same can be said for the Scottish ... i.e. those that voted against Scottish independence are not true Scotsmen and therefore the true Scotsmen (those who wanted Scottish independence) can disrespect the choice of the majority. Unfortunately you can't see how this undemocratic way of thinking leads directly to conflict.

Sotos wrote:Erolz, what you would personally forgo is irrelevant... who has the power on your side is Turkey, not you personally... and in fact enosis is not something which is wanted anymore so if that was the issue then we would have come to an agreement long ago.


The desire for enosis is today no longer wanted by a majority of GC,, I accept that. However the principal that says should GC want to end the existence of Cyprus as an independent entity , they can validly do so in the name of a unitary Cypriot people, even though they seek to destroy that very thing that makes us a unitary people - this idea is very much alive, as you yourself demonstrate. When all GC want something and only GC want it , it because they are NOT acting as Cypriots that includes us as well it is because they are acting as Greeks. If you can accept if and when you choose to act as Greeks we get a separate voice as people who share the same homeland and that are not Greek then we have no problem. But you refuse to accept this. You demand the right to act purely as Greeks who live on Cyprus but insist when you do so you are in fact just expressing the will of a unitary Cypriot people. It is bunkum. It was bunkum then and it remains bunkum now.

The principle is a general one... it is not just about Greece. The principle is that Cyprus belongs to the Cypriot people and that the Cypriot people should be free to democratically decide what to do with their own island INCLUDING choosing NOT to be an independent state if that would serve the interests of Cypriots better. Like what the Scots did. Or like what might happen in the future if EU countries want to became a single country. Cypriots HAVE the right to take such decisions by democratic means. I accept to make an EXCEPTION specifically for Greece just to satisfy you... not because there is anything wrong with the principle.

Sotos wrote:But I don't understand what you mean by "unitary Cypriot people". We are two ethnic groups, different languages, different religions living on the same island. Was there a "unitary Cypriot people" during British rule? During Ottoman rule? Or is this thing something newly invented... or not yet invented and you want to create it?


There is either something that binds us together that is stronger than our differences (being Cypriot) or there is not. If there is not then we are two separate and different people and division is near inevitable. We could and can choose to create a Cypriot identity that would bind us together but we have to date failed to do so. The only hope for the future is to do so as far as I am concerned.


Partition is a crime Turkey committed by ethnically cleansing the majority of the population and stealing our lands and NOTHING can justify it. If we assume that two groups of people who are different can not live on the same territory (which is wrong assumption) and that they should be divided by ethnic cleansing (which is a crime) then the least bad way to do it would be by ethnically cleansing the least possible amount of people (i.e. the minority) and who also have a far lesser history in Cyprus. I am not against creating a Cypriot identity that would "bind us together", but even if that doesn't happen (mostly because TCs don't want anything "unitary" but instead everything divided in 2) that doesn't mean you have any right to partition.
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Re: The dark side of Greek'ness and Greek history!

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:51 pm

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: You refused the democratic rights of 80% of the country. Why is that right?


Here you have said it yourself. It can not be the democratic right of a COUNTRY when the thing that the 80% want is the non existence of that very COUNTRY. You simply can not claim with any legitimacy that enosis is the valid will and democratic right of a unitary Cypriot people and country because enosis says there is no such thing as a unitary Cypriot people and country. That you tried to claim this as a means of imposing enosis on TC without any regard for their will as people who shared Cyprus with you as a homeland and who were not Greek , and failed should have taught you something but you have learnt nothing from the mistakes of the past and insist on repeating them.


I see you're playing at stupid, but just in case you're not playing but are - if 80% of a country's population vote for a situation, then democracy is about following the will of the majority.

Your ifs and buts on 'democracy', your picking and choosing on 'rights' prove one thing only - that you do not accept democracy.

That' fine, don't accept democracy - it makes sense of everything else you say, and supports why you want it all ...
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