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German aircraft crash

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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby Paphitis » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:31 am

miltiades wrote:" ABSOLUTELY NO HINT IN LUFTHANSA FAILING IN ITS DUTY " !!!!

This comment is indicative of your inability to grasp the reality of what caused the murder of 149 passengers. A Lufthansa pilot with previous and on going mental issues caused this tragedy, I did not appoint him as a pilot and neither did anyone else. Lufthansa did therefore failing in its duty to carry its passengers safely from A to B.

You are a first class PLONKER !


Yes Lufthansa was thorough in its duty to deliver a superior and safe product to the public which is something they are famed for within the industry. Their reputation is prolific, like many others such as CA which was just on a much smaller scale.

You're unfortunately dealing with Psychopathic tendencies here, by an individual who was also highly intelligent and with a much higher IQ than you and who is easily able to slip through the system. These types of people are also extremely charismatic. History is littered with these types of individuals. Often, they gain power and money and climb the political arena - Hitler and Stalin come to mind but there are many more. Both responsible for the death of over 20 million people.

The media, does not care about the victims. They just pretend to care about the famies. It's more accurate to say they care about their circulation and TV ratings. In the UK you even witnessed the phone back scandal as an indication as to their lack of anything moral. I don't believe you care about the victims either. In fact I am certain about it.

Lufthansa on the other hand, and all the Pilot Unions and advocacy groups have an invested interest which the media do not possess. It's our industry and we want it to be safe and we all have concerns for the families founded on strong moral tendencies. The industry by enlarge is like that. The families will be looked after as best we can but obviously a money figure can not be put on someone's life. Lufthansa could have avoided that altogether quite legally but that is not what our industry is about. The money is there and it will be used to alleviate some pain for them. They will be given every other assistance they need as well. Lufthansa is quite cash rich and it will be doing what we in the industry expect them to do. If you had the types of executives in Lufthansa as are prevalent in the media, then Lufthansa might be an entirely different kettle of fish and our industry would be every bit as low as the media.

You, being a very senior person should know better than be a fool.

We will not allow anyone to subvert our industry or destroy processes and principles which we have built over decades of aviation and which were put in place from the hard lessons of the past! This is our way of supporting the victim's families by round what we believe is in their best interests and ours.

The mere fact that the best minds in our industry have made their thoughts known, as well as the the medical profession which has cautioned against many aspects of this debate, should be a wake call unless you're some kind of Chav who swallows the shit that is fed to you by media who in reality don't give a flying fuck about the victims or aviation safety. You will not get anyone more interested in aviation safety or the families than the stakeholders themselves who are a part of this industry. FACT and undeniae which is why you're up shit creek without a paddle, because without our support people with your stupid ideas are flying close to microburst activity and we'll get slammed back down to earth.
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby miltiades » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:49 am

Paphitis wrote:
miltiades wrote:" ABSOLUTELY NO HINT IN LUFTHANSA FAILING IN ITS DUTY " !!!!

This comment is indicative of your inability to grasp the reality of what caused the murder of 149 passengers. A Lufthansa pilot with previous and on going mental issues caused this tragedy, I did not appoint him as a pilot and neither did anyone else. Lufthansa did therefore failing in its duty to carry its passengers safely from A to B.

You are a first class PLONKER !


Yes Lufthansa was thorough in its duty to deliver a superior and safe product to the public which is something they are famed for within the industry. Their reputation is prolific, like many others such as CA which was just on a much smaller scale.

You're unfortunately dealing with Psychopathic tendencies here, by an individual who was also highly intelligent and with a much higher IQ than you and who is easily able to slip through the system. These types of people are also extremely charismatic. History is littered with these types of individuals. Often, they gain power and money and climb the political arena - Hitler and Stalin come to mind but there are many more. Both responsible for the death of over 20 million people.

The media, does not care about the victims. They just pretend to care about the famies. It's more accurate to say they care about their circulation and TV ratings. In the UK you even witnessed the phone back scandal as an indication as to their lack of anything moral. I don't believe you care about the victims either. In fact I am certain about it.

Lufthansa on the other hand, and all the Pilot Unions and advocacy groups have an invested interest which the media do not possess. It's our industry and we want it to be safe and we all have concerns for the families founded on strong moral tendencies. The industry by enlarge is like that. The families will be looked after as best we can but obviously a money figure can not be put on someone's life. Lufthansa could have avoided that altogether quite legally but that is not what our industry is about. The money is there and it will be used to alleviate some pain for them. They will be given every other assistance they need as well. Lufthansa is quite cash rich and it will be doing what we in the industry expect them to do. If you had the types of executives in Lufthansa as are prevalent in the media, then Lufthansa might be an entirely different kettle of fish and our industry would be every bit as low as the media.

You, being a very senior person should know better than be a fool.

We will not allow anyone to subvert our industry or destroy processes and principles which we have built over decades of aviation and which were put in place from the hard lessons of the past! This is our way of supporting the victim's families by round what we believe is in their best interests and ours.

The mere fact that the best minds in our industry have made their thoughts known, as well as the the medical profession which has cautioned against many aspects of this debate, should be a wake call unless you're some kind of Chav who swallows the shit that is fed to you by media who in reality don't give a flying fuck about the victims or aviation safety. You will not get anyone more interested in aviation safety or the families than the stakeholders themselves who are a part of this industry. FACT and undeniae which is why you're up shit creek without a paddle, because without our support people with your stupid ideas are flying close to microburst activity and we'll get slammed back down to earth.

WE !!! You must be paranoid being a flight attentand!!
" We will not allow anyone to subvert our industry or destroy processes and principles which we have built over decades of aviation and which were put in place from the hard lessons of the past! This is our way of supporting the victim's families by round what we believe is in their best interests and ours. "
What the fuck are you on about you wet behind the ears moron. The fact is that 149 people lost their lives in a horrific, violent scaring fashion. I dont give a shit what the media has said on this, I just concern my self with the fact that a lunatic with previous mental issues was not discovered by Lufthansa before this tragic murder.

You are just presenting your self as a ...defender of the aviation industry regardless.

On the day of the flight this lunatic was signed off work by his doctor. If controls were in place he would not not have been on this aircraft, the medical profession needs to examine its responsibilities. This nonsense on patient confidentiality must not apply to those in charge of the lives of others.

By the way, when was the last time you were signed off on mental grounds ?
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby Paphitis » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:55 am

miltiades wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
miltiades wrote:" ABSOLUTELY NO HINT IN LUFTHANSA FAILING IN ITS DUTY " !!!!

This comment is indicative of your inability to grasp the reality of what caused the murder of 149 passengers. A Lufthansa pilot with previous and on going mental issues caused this tragedy, I did not appoint him as a pilot and neither did anyone else. Lufthansa did therefore failing in its duty to carry its passengers safely from A to B.

You are a first class PLONKER !


Yes Lufthansa was thorough in its duty to deliver a superior and safe product to the public which is something they are famed for within the industry. Their reputation is prolific, like many others such as CA which was just on a much smaller scale.

You're unfortunately dealing with Psychopathic tendencies here, by an individual who was also highly intelligent and with a much higher IQ than you and who is easily able to slip through the system. These types of people are also extremely charismatic. History is littered with these types of individuals. Often, they gain power and money and climb the political arena - Hitler and Stalin come to mind but there are many more. Both responsible for the death of over 20 million people.

The media, does not care about the victims. They just pretend to care about the famies. It's more accurate to say they care about their circulation and TV ratings. In the UK you even witnessed the phone back scandal as an indication as to their lack of anything moral. I don't believe you care about the victims either. In fact I am certain about it.

Lufthansa on the other hand, and all the Pilot Unions and advocacy groups have an invested interest which the media do not possess. It's our industry and we want it to be safe and we all have concerns for the families founded on strong moral tendencies. The industry by enlarge is like that. The families will be looked after as best we can but obviously a money figure can not be put on someone's life. Lufthansa could have avoided that altogether quite legally but that is not what our industry is about. The money is there and it will be used to alleviate some pain for them. They will be given every other assistance they need as well. Lufthansa is quite cash rich and it will be doing what we in the industry expect them to do. If you had the types of executives in Lufthansa as are prevalent in the media, then Lufthansa might be an entirely different kettle of fish and our industry would be every bit as low as the media.

You, being a very senior person should know better than be a fool.

We will not allow anyone to subvert our industry or destroy processes and principles which we have built over decades of aviation and which were put in place from the hard lessons of the past! This is our way of supporting the victim's families by round what we believe is in their best interests and ours.

The mere fact that the best minds in our industry have made their thoughts known, as well as the the medical profession which has cautioned against many aspects of this debate, should be a wake call unless you're some kind of Chav who swallows the shit that is fed to you by media who in reality don't give a flying fuck about the victims or aviation safety. You will not get anyone more interested in aviation safety or the families than the stakeholders themselves who are a part of this industry. FACT and undeniae which is why you're up shit creek without a paddle, because without our support people with your stupid ideas are flying close to microburst activity and we'll get slammed back down to earth.

WE !!! You must be paranoid being a flight attentand!!
" We will not allow anyone to subvert our industry or destroy processes and principles which we have built over decades of aviation and which were put in place from the hard lessons of the past! This is our way of supporting the victim's families by round what we believe is in their best interests and ours. "
What the fuck are you on about you wet behind the ears moron. The fact is that 149 people lost their lives in a horrific, violent scaring fashion. I dont give a shit what the media has said on this, I just concern my self with the fact that a lunatic with previous mental issues was not discovered by Lufthansa before this tragic murder.

You are just presenting your self as a ...defender of the aviation industry regardless.

On the day of the flight this lunatic was signed off work by his doctor. If controls were in place he would not not have been on this aircraft, the medical profession needs to examine its responsibilities. This nonsense on patient confidentiality must not apply to those in charge of the lives of others.

By the way, when was the last time you were signed off on mental grounds ?


Yes we! Flight Attendants are part of our industry and most of them have more morals in their little toe nail than you do.

They are also a lot more qualified to be speaking on this subject than you are. They are better looking than you, a lot more interesting than you and a hell of a lot more smarter than you.

The "we" includes them as well as Lufthansa executives, safety, engineers, technicians, operations, and even caterers. We are all one team, in the same industry and our teams are represented by our legal representatives through our many unions who won't take too kindly to turning this into a fiasco.
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby miltiades » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:10 am

" They are better looking than you !! :lol: :lol:
You Plonker !! :lol:
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby Paphitis » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:49 am

miltiades wrote:" They are better looking than you !! :lol: :lol:
You Plonker !! :lol:


Is that it. I would have thought you can do better than that.

Did you're good digging tart whack you on the head one too many times with some cheap chinese cookware?
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby miltiades » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:57 am

Paphitis wrote:
miltiades wrote:" They are better looking than you !! :lol: :lol:
You Plonker !! :lol:


Is that it. I would have thought you can do better than that.

Did you're good digging tart whack you on the head one too many times with some cheap chinese cookware?

You have turned out to be a propert PLONKER!!
You begun throwing insults at a man old enough to be your father, for no apparent reason.

May your career progress, and lets leave it at that.
By the way, Im ...extremely good ...looking!!! Can't wait to reach my ...69 th position in life :lol: :lol:
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby supporttheunderdog » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:01 pm

I do not think the airline can deny the families compensation as under the Montreal convention they are strictly liable for proven damages up to 113,100 special drawing rights (SDR) and this includes legal liability for the acts of their employees, for whom they are vicariously liable.

See artice 17 of the Montreal Convention.

Article 17 - Death and injury of passengers - damage to baggage
75
1. The carrier is liable for damage sustained in case of death or bodily injury of a passenger upon condition only that the accident which caused the death or injury took place on board the aircraft or in the course of any of the operations of embarking or disembarking.


Note: no need for negligence only that takes place on the aircraft.

It is possible to beat the SDR 113000 cap . See article 21

Article 21 - Compensation in case of death or injury of passengers
93
1. For damages arising under paragraph 1 of Article 17 not exceeding 113,100 Special Drawing Rights for each passenger, the carrier shall not be able to exclude or limit its liability.
94
2. The carrier shall not be liable for damages arising under paragraph 1 of Article 17 to the extent that they exceed for each passenger 113,100 Special Drawing Rights if the carrier proves that:
95
(a) such damage was not due to the negligence or other wrongful act or omission of the carrier or its servants or agents; or
96
(b) such damage was solely due to the negligence or other wrongful act or omission of a third party.


Whether or not the airline were negligent in allowing Lubitz to fly is a matter still to be determined, however for liability purposes under art 21 they will most likely be liable for proven losses in excess of the limit bearing in mind that they are probably legally responsible for the wrongful act of Lubitz in allegedly willfully flying the plane into the ground, who as an employee was their "servant". It is however up the families to show what losses are suffered.
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby Paphitis » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:23 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:I do not think the airline can deny the families compensation as under the Montreal convention they are strictly liable for proven damages up to 113,100 special drawing rights (SDR) and this includes legal liability for the acts of their employees, for whom they are vicariously liable.

See artice 17 of the Montreal Convention.

Article 17 - Death and injury of passengers - damage to baggage
75
1. The carrier is liable for damage sustained in case of death or bodily injury of a passenger upon condition only that the accident which caused the death or injury took place on board the aircraft or in the course of any of the operations of embarking or disembarking.


Note: no need for negligence only that takes place on the aircraft.

It is possible to beat the SDR 113000 cap . See article 21

Article 21 - Compensation in case of death or injury of passengers
93
1. For damages arising under paragraph 1 of Article 17 not exceeding 113,100 Special Drawing Rights for each passenger, the carrier shall not be able to exclude or limit its liability.
94
2. The carrier shall not be liable for damages arising under paragraph 1 of Article 17 to the extent that they exceed for each passenger 113,100 Special Drawing Rights if the carrier proves that:
95
(a) such damage was not due to the negligence or other wrongful act or omission of the carrier or its servants or agents; or
96
(b) such damage was solely due to the negligence or other wrongful act or omission of a third party.


Whether or not the airline were negligent in allowing Lubitz to fly is a matter still to be determined, however for liability purposes under art 21 they will most likely be liable for proven losses in excess of the limit bearing in mind that they are probably legally responsible for the wrongful act of Lubitz in allegedly willfully flying the plane into the ground, who as an employee was their "servant". It is however up the families to show what losses are suffered.


Lufthansa does actually have a strong case if they wanted to argue the point.

There is no evidence so far of willful or wrongful neglect by the airline, and I wouldn't expect there to be either.

The legislation actually refers to negligence and wrongful act of the carrier, and the argument there is that the pilot acted illegally on his own accord.

It wouldn't be worth it for them to try it though.
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby Paphitis » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:28 pm

I am pretty sure that Lufthansa Lawyers will be insisting that their airline is cleared of any negligence and will probably seek to bind the victim's families in a settlement.
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Re: German aircraft crash

Postby supporttheunderdog » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:27 pm

Paphitis wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:I do not think the airline can deny the families compensation as under the Montreal convention they are strictly liable for proven damages up to 113,100 special drawing rights (SDR) and this includes legal liability for the acts of their employees, for whom they are vicariously liable.

See artice 17 of the Montreal Convention.

Article 17 - Death and injury of passengers - damage to baggage
75
1. The carrier is liable for damage sustained in case of death or bodily injury of a passenger upon condition only that the accident which caused the death or injury took place on board the aircraft or in the course of any of the operations of embarking or disembarking.


Note: no need for negligence only that takes place on the aircraft.

It is possible to beat the SDR 113000 cap . See article 21

Article 21 - Compensation in case of death or injury of passengers
93
1. For damages arising under paragraph 1 of Article 17 not exceeding 113,100 Special Drawing Rights for each passenger, the carrier shall not be able to exclude or limit its liability.
94
2. The carrier shall not be liable for damages arising under paragraph 1 of Article 17 to the extent that they exceed for each passenger 113,100 Special Drawing Rights if the carrier proves that:
95
(a) such damage was not due to the negligence or other wrongful act or omission of the carrier or its servants or agents; or
96
(b) such damage was solely due to the negligence or other wrongful act or omission of a third party.


Whether or not the airline were negligent in allowing Lubitz to fly is a matter still to be determined, however for liability purposes under art 21 they will most likely be liable for proven losses in excess of the limit bearing in mind that they are probably legally responsible for the wrongful act of Lubitz in allegedly willfully flying the plane into the ground, who as an employee was their "servant". It is however up the families to show what losses are suffered.


Lufthansa does actually have a strong case if they wanted to argue the point.

There is no evidence so far of willful or wrongful neglect by the airline, and I wouldn't expect there to be either.

The legislation actually refers to negligence and wrongful act of the carrier, and the argument there is that the pilot acted illegally on his own accord.

It wouldn't be worth it for them to try it though.


The points that you conveniently overlook are
(a) that up to the first layer there need not be any negligence: see article 17.
(b) the phrase
wrongful act or omission of the carrier
or its servants
or agents

These are part of German law under eg § 45 LuftVG
Apart from the problems caused to Lufthansa/GermanWings by article 21/ § 45 LuftVG, whether or not Lubitz was on a frolick of his own may not matter - under English law at least where the acts are closely related to the performance of his duties the an employer may well be responsible for the illegal acts of their employee - see eg Lister v Hesley Hall Ltd [2001] UKHL 22, and under German law it may fall within the scope of § 831 (1) BVG

BTW I am not a lawyer but Transport law has been my area for 40 years.
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