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Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Kikapu » Mon May 11, 2015 1:53 am

Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
That's pretty strange and news to me.

A referendum is the will of the people, and if he ignores it then he has signed his political death warrant. It's political suicide.

I don't think he is going to risk his future because he is on the cusp of another 2 terms after this one if all goes well with the economy and that is going to make him one of the longest serving PMs.

We had referendums in Australia regarding abolishing the Crown. God help any PM who ignores the will of the people.

In fact I believe that it will result in a total dissolution.


But Cameron is going to have a referendum so the people can vote. I just don't think he is going to support the UK getting out of the EU because as far as know, he has not done so thus far, and without the governments backing, there's not a chance the referendum would pass.

By the way, did your PM support abolishing the Crown? I doubt it!


he can support whatever he likes and even campaign for the no Brexit. That is his democratic right.

But he does not have the legal power to deliberately disregard the wishes of the people should they vote for a Brexit.

I am not sure how it is in Britain, but in Australia, the rights of the people are enshrined in the Constitution. The people have a right to trigger a referendum with a mere 100,000 signatures of the people. Technically, according to the Constitution, the people have the political right to change laws, call for referendums (100,000 signatures) and even abolish the Crown. The people's decision is final.


Paphitis, I think we are having a communication problem. I never said that Cameron will disregard the referendom results should the people vote for UK to exit the EU. What I'm saying is, I don't think Cameron wants the UK out of the EU, therefore he will not backs those who might. Without the government supporting for ther UK to exit the EU, the results of the referendum will be a "NO" vote. Cameron will do a lot of "Granstanding" with the EU leaders to get a better deal for the UK, but in the end, he will not go against the UK being in the EU.

I don't know about the UK either, but in the USA, it also needs 100,000 signatures to get a referendum/proposition to be voted on, be may be at State or Federal level.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Paphitis » Mon May 11, 2015 2:35 am

Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
That's pretty strange and news to me.

A referendum is the will of the people, and if he ignores it then he has signed his political death warrant. It's political suicide.

I don't think he is going to risk his future because he is on the cusp of another 2 terms after this one if all goes well with the economy and that is going to make him one of the longest serving PMs.

We had referendums in Australia regarding abolishing the Crown. God help any PM who ignores the will of the people.

In fact I believe that it will result in a total dissolution.


But Cameron is going to have a referendum so the people can vote. I just don't think he is going to support the UK getting out of the EU because as far as know, he has not done so thus far, and without the governments backing, there's not a chance the referendum would pass.

By the way, did your PM support abolishing the Crown? I doubt it!


he can support whatever he likes and even campaign for the no Brexit. That is his democratic right.

But he does not have the legal power to deliberately disregard the wishes of the people should they vote for a Brexit.

I am not sure how it is in Britain, but in Australia, the rights of the people are enshrined in the Constitution. The people have a right to trigger a referendum with a mere 100,000 signatures of the people. Technically, according to the Constitution, the people have the political right to change laws, call for referendums (100,000 signatures) and even abolish the Crown. The people's decision is final.


Paphitis, I think we are having a communication problem. I never said that Cameron will disregard the referendom results should the people vote for UK to exit the EU. What I'm saying is, I don't think Cameron wants the UK out of the EU, therefore he will not backs those who might. Without the government supporting for ther UK to exit the EU, the results of the referendum will be a "NO" vote. Cameron will do a lot of "Granstanding" with the EU leaders to get a better deal for the UK, but in the end, he will not go against the UK being in the EU.

I don't know about the UK either, but in the USA, it also needs 100,000 signatures to get a referendum/proposition to be voted on, be may be at State or Federal level.


OK no worries.

Cameron is free to do what he likes.

Grandstanding with EU leaders would be an insult to Britain. That is how I would see it anyway.

So Cameron would need to be careful and consider his actions very carefully because he won the election partly because he gave an undertaking to offer the people a right to self determine.

Whatever happened to good ole fashioned nationalism? You know very well that this stuff won't wash with Americans.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon May 11, 2015 11:19 am

Kikapu wrote:... I don't think Cameron wants the UK out of the EU ...


Spot on, in my opinion. Cameron is not some grubby, populist guttersnipe like Farage. He comes from the top drawer of the British establishment, and is part of the mainstream of the Conservative party, which essentially represents the interests of big business. I don't believe that either the British establishment or British big business see their interests served by leaving the EU, although I can believe that they want to see changes in the EU. However, Cameron's party has right wingers on the lunatic fringe who cannot bear being in a union with continentals, whom they despise, and some of them might up sticks and join Farage's closet fascists at a moment's notice, so Cameron has to tread carefully in the interests of party unity and keep his true thoughts and intentions regarding Europe to himself.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon May 11, 2015 11:51 am

Recent opinion polls show that there are more ‘in’s’ than ‘out’s’, and that is without all the fanfare we will see after Cameron makes his triumphal return, having renegotiated Britain’s membership terms.

Image

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/02/24/eu ... cord-lead/

William Hill the bookmakers are making a vote to stay in 1/2 favourite.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Lordo » Mon May 11, 2015 1:16 pm

he is not a good character, if he was he would not accuse miliband of backstabbing his brother by standing in elections of a leader of the labour party as well as when he was asked by the public if he would cut the benefits for the poor he did not answer. what kind of a cunt does not answer a straight forward question like that.

there is a plan, he is stupid enough to think that he can put pressure on the germans to give him concessions and he is using the referendum to maximize the concessions. the germans will tell him to fuck off like last time when he asked for a rebate. he was given a concession to pay it back a year later. and of course the crossdressing lunatic dressed that as a concession of reduction when in fact we are paying the exact amount as before just a little latter. we have to pay what is due according to the rules. if he goes out of eu the ques for food banks will grow to a mile long instead of couple of hundred yards. can you believe that we have food banks in this country after 5 years of these bastards.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon May 11, 2015 1:33 pm

I think the rest of the EU ruling circles realise that a little charade is called for to give the impression that Cameron has forced a new deal for the UK on them, and this will then be touted in the mass media as a great victory. Assuming that wish among the ruling elite is to engineer a 'stay in' vote, something along these lines will happen.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Paphitis » Mon May 11, 2015 1:53 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:... I don't think Cameron wants the UK out of the EU ...


Spot on, in my opinion. Cameron is not some grubby, populist guttersnipe like Farage. He comes from the top drawer of the British establishment, and is part of the mainstream of the Conservative party, which essentially represents the interests of big business. I don't believe that either the British establishment or British big business see their interests served by leaving the EU, although I can believe that they want to see changes in the EU. However, Cameron's party has right wingers on the lunatic fringe who cannot bear being in a union with continentals, whom they despise, and some of them might up sticks and join Farage's closet fascists at a moment's notice, so Cameron has to tread carefully in the interests of party unity and keep his true thoughts and intentions regarding Europe to himself.


I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

A Brexit does not mean that all of a sudden there will be no Free Trade Agreements with the EU. With that said, you will need to prove how British Business will be disadvantaged. What you say is just a scare campaign.

I also get a little upset when supporters in the opposition accuse the Government of looking after the "big end" of town, big business as if that is all they are interested in. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Running a country is a bit like a balancing act. Yes, it is true that a good government will look at looking after the interests of business. There is no choice. If you do the opposite and slug them too much, they tighten their belts. They lay off staff and unemployment rises which places a bigger burden on the tax payer.

They would also look after the other end. So all Governments look at and introduce many social schemes like subsidized healthcare, subsidized or free education, unemployment benefits, pensions, child care and parenting support, pharmaceuticals benefits or subsidies etc

Cameron has introduced many schemes which are not for the benefit of business but are for the other end of struggling British families. It's a fine line.

What you are doing is play politics. The truth of the matter is that The Labor Party would operate in a fairly similar fashion. Again, they would walk the fine line between business and the taxpayer who is forced to pay too much as well as offer the community the required safety nets and services.

I will give you an example. Australia has a right wing Government. The Labor Party accuse it of looking after the rich and the big end of town big business.

And yet, it's the first Government that has taken Google, Apple, BHP, RIO TINTO etc etc to a tax Royal Commission because it accuses them of not paying their obligatory levels of tax. Within the same inquiries, they issued these businesses with fines totalling some 2 Billion. That just in fines for tax avoidance and they still need to pay their tax and if they don't the tax debt attracts interest at 21%. They have now embarked on a campaign to enforce big business to pay their fair share of tax.

That is NOT looking after big business at all!

Google even threatened Australians by saying they should use BING or something.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Paphitis » Mon May 11, 2015 2:05 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:Recent opinion polls show that there are more ‘in’s’ than ‘out’s’, and that is without all the fanfare we will see after Cameron makes his triumphal return, having renegotiated Britain’s membership terms.

Image

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/02/24/eu ... cord-lead/

William Hill the bookmakers are making a vote to stay in 1/2 favourite.


Polls will always fluctuate.

Once the British public are educated about all the issues which are actually destroying their social fabric then expect some change.

For instance, at the moment, all EU countries are scrambling to solve the illegal immigration/refugee issue. Greece had over 1 million illegals. That is over 10% of the population still is illegal. It's not the cause for Greece's demise but it is a contributor for sure.

Yet Greece is forbidden by the EU to adopt Australian Measures which have proven to be effective. The EU forbids it.

You have another over arching level of Bureacracy which has now taken uncontrollable proportions.
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Paphitis » Mon May 11, 2015 2:10 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:I think the rest of the EU ruling circles realise that a little charade is called for to give the impression that Cameron has forced a new deal for the UK on them, and this will then be touted in the mass media as a great victory. Assuming that wish among the ruling elite is to engineer a 'stay in' vote, something along these lines will happen.


As I said to you before, Cameron the citizen of Britain has the right to exercise his vote as he sees fit.

He would want to be very careful what he campaigns for because approximately 50% of his supporting voters want a Brexit and yes there is a cell within his party who are also in favour of it too.

However, things are quite simple. He made a promise so he better keep it. Let the people decide. The British Public are indeed lucky to be given such an opportunity. In Cyprus, the Government asked no one but their time will come too when they too will need to turn to the people about the EU!
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Re: Will UK save occupied Europe AGAIN?

Postby Kikapu » Fri May 15, 2015 10:22 am

Kikapu wrote: What I'm saying is, I don't think Cameron wants the UK out of the EU


Well, it has already started. :wink:

Britain wants ’fast’ European Union settlement - FT quotes Hammond

Britain wants to reach a new settlement with the European Union as fast as possible, Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said, the Financial Times reported on Friday.
Prime Minister David Cameron, who won an outright majority in a general election last week, has pledged to renegotiate Britain's ties with Europe before giving voters an in-out referendum on EU membership by the end of 2017.
Hammond, speaking on the sidelines of a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Turkey, made clear that change to the bloc's founding treaties, which is opposed by some EU leaders, was not, in itself, a political goal for his Conservative government.

He said the timing of the renegotiation would depend "entirely on our partners", the FT reported.
"If they enthusiastically embrace the agenda ...we would move as fast as possible," he said.

The FT said one option could see EU leaders issuing a decision that has binding force under international law but in effect postdates treaty change.
"That is how I want this process to end up: a good package of reforms; a 'yes' vote; and a step change in the way the relationship works, with Britain being really engaged and a loud voice in the union," Hammond said.

Hammond said he aimed to support the campaign for keeping Britain in the EU.

http://www.todayszaman.com/world_britai ... 80747.html
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