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What could Turkey do other than intervening militarily?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby erolz » Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:55 pm

Piratis wrote:
So why don't you give us an example of a community that does not own a specific area in the country (like the Scottish in the UK for example), and that have what you are asking from us. Just give me one example.


There is no point in giving you examples because you have shown in the past that you will dismiss any examples as 'not the same as Cyprus' - an unltimate reason if you want one because no where is the same as Cyprus.

My point that I am trying to make is in the CONCEPT of a numericaly smaller group having equality with a numericaly larger one. This concpet appears throughout human orgainsations, be they within states, be they between states and just about any other entities that have representations of disperate groups. I myself am in the process of trying to broker some form of co operative body for wireless internet service providers here in North Cyprus as just one example. On some issues the smaller players require and will have an 'equal say' as the larger entities. This is fundamental in such co opertative ventures. If we were to try and create such a mutaly benefical association on the basis that the largest player would dominate the association on all issues then there will be no association at all. There is nothing fundamentaly unfair or undemocratic about making a 'group' the 'unit of democracy' even when the numbers that make up that group are different between groups. Yes there needs to be decisions and agreement on what consistutes a valid group in terms of being a 'unit of democracy' in a given organisational structure - but you constantly argue that this very CONCEPT is invalid (it's just a matter of maths) - even though this CONCEPT is the same one that gives the RoC equality with states like Germany and the UK within the EU in some areas!

You want to eat your cake and still have a cake left having eaten it on this issue. You simply refuse to recognise that such a concept of equality of groups - independent of their numbers, is a fair and democratic and common occurance through organisational structures throughout the world. If you could accept that this is a valid concept and then argued that TC do not 'qualify' - that would be one thing. However you argue that the very CONCEPT is invalid and that makes you 'extreme' in my view and there is little point in discussions with such 'extreme' views in my experience. You present an argument that a numerical minority must always be a political minority - as though it is a fundamental law of nature. You argue that accpeting political equality between TC and GC at any level is akin to trying to get two positivley charged atoms to attract and about as possible. The more you insist in such a position (and ignore it when its convient to your own interests to do so) the less I see any chance of reasonable dialogue with you. Argue that TC should not be deemed a group that should have such a status - fine. We can discuss this and agree to disagree if necessasary. Argue that the CONCEPT is invalid, undemocratic and unfair (as you do) and then there is little to be discussed, is there? Except maybe how we 'solidify' seperation fo the two communites into sperate states with some land exchanges.
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Postby mehmet » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:24 am

Insan, I don't say such things occurred in only direction, and equally I don't allege that what occurred was systematic and organised. All I say is that these things occur in war times, just as people civilians getting killed happens. No nation is incapable of such behaviour. What I find distasteful is the denial that this happens. I would prefer if it were not so too. Also distateful was the leader of RoC saying no Turkish Cypriots were killed between 1963-74. We have to acknowledge that in this conflict there were innocent casualties on both sides.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:50 am

There is no point in giving you examples because you have shown in the past that you will dismiss any examples as 'not the same as Cyprus' - an unltimate reason if you want one because no where is the same as Cyprus.

In the past your only "example" was that of EU. What you did is that you compare EU countries with communities within a country. EU, is a union, is an alliance of separate countries, it is not a country. You were just comparing apples and oranges.

Turkish Cypriots are a numerically smaller community with specific differences(e.g. language, religion) that before the illegal invasion used to live all over the island.
Such communities exist in all countries, and I already gave you examples. What you are asking for is something that no community in any other country has.

In any case, if you falsely try to apply such concept for communities, shouldn't the same rights be given to Armenians, Maronites and Latins?

Somehow you use some very strange double standards. First you want to apply in Cyprus what is not applied to a community in any other country (double standard No1), and then at the same time you want to apply this only for your community and not the other numerically smaller groups in Cyprus (double standard No2).
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Postby insan » Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:48 pm

Somehow you use some very strange double standards. First you want to apply in Cyprus what is not applied to a community in any other country (double standard No1), and then at the same time you want to apply this only for your community and not the other numerically smaller groups in Cyprus (double standard No2).



There has been neither a same nor a similar problem with the Cyprus problem, in history of the world... However, there are some similarities within. The question is understanding each others concerns and find out a common ground irrespective of what other unitary or federative states based upon. Wisdom and good judgement is all what we need. Cyprus has its own special circumstances which created by its own people. It is a fact that, there are two distinct communities which one of them constitutes 1/5 of the total population for about 400 years. It is a fact that neither of these two communities have submitted the domination of other community. If majority of two communities wish to live in a united Cyprus, a formula should be founded to protect them from each others domination by all means. Individual rights and protections are not adequate to protect the community which granted to be one of the constituent and is 1/5 of the population.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:32 pm

It is a fact that, there are two distinct communities which one of them constitutes 1/5 of the total population for about 400 years. It is a fact that neither of these two communities have submitted the domination of other community. If majority of two communities wish to live in a united Cyprus, a formula should be founded to protect them from each others domination by all means.


There are a ton of countries that are made up from two or more distinct communities. The difficult part is to find an "ethnically pure" country and not the opposite. There are also a ton of countries that during different parts of their histories conflicts existed between some of their communities*. (black and whites in the US for example). The way to solve these conflicts is not by giving a minority 50% power. This is undemocratic. What is done in all other countries, is that they have special minority rights, anti-discrimination laws, human rights, and they can even take affirmative actions to make sure that people from all communities are treated equally. There are many ways to secure that Turkish Cypriots will not be dominated, and actually now within EU even if we wanted to do such thing it would be impossible. On top of the EU you will have the protections in the constitution that can change only if Turkish Cypriots agree.

Somehow you believe that you are sooo special. Something like the chosen people of your God, and that what applies in the rest of the world should not apply to you.

----
*If these communities own a separate part of the country, like it is the case with Kurds in Turkey, or Chechens in Russia, it could be argued that to end the conflict you should separate the communities (e.g. give independence to Kurdistan, Chechnya etc). This is not the case in Cyprus though, because Turkish Cypriots do not own a specific part of the country. All Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots. So Turkish Cypriots should stop thinking "our part of Cyprus" they should think "our whole Cyprus" and that in this whole Cyprus each one of them is an equal citizen, and that their community as a whole will be protected in the most official way, clearly in the constitution, that can not change unless TCs want to. Turkish Cypriots should realize that protecting their community is their right and it will be done, but this protection should not be used as an excuse to violate basic democratic principles and human rights of others.
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Postby insan » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:45 pm

Ok piratis... Keep believeing and struggling what you interprete and believe is right. TC community have been doing the same for 100 years and apparently they won't give up...

You turned the issue into a hard challenge and based it on balance of the powers. In the end the stronger will make the weak to accept its own solution thesis. That's all. There's nothing more to argue.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:40 pm

You turned the issue into a hard challenge and based it on balance of the powers. In the end the stronger will make the weak to accept its own solution thesis. That's all. There's nothing more to argue.


No, you turned the issue into balance of power by trying to use the power of Turkey (and friends) to achieve your goals. We are the weak side, why would we want the result to be that of the balance of power when we know that this balance doesn't favor as at all?

The stronger already imposes his own thesis in Cyprus illegally for the last 30 years. Now Turkey simply moved from "clean partition" to "disguised partition" because the second will be something that will be considered legal and serves their interests better now (because of their EU aspirations).

So while you are illegally imposing your thesis on us by violating our most basic human rights and you threaten to continue to do so, all we are asking for is nothing more than a decent and bearable compromise: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus211.html . Instead of recognizing that we have made huge compromises and your community will gain with that more than any minority in any democratic country has ever gained, you are demanding more and more, with outrageous demands such as this one that naturally can not be accepted.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:46 pm

Re adelfe Insan,
Did I say the Greeks and the GCs are angels and the Turks and TCs are the opposite?
Rapes and killings do occur extensively during war times especially by the ones who win the war. If we were the winners I would have no doubt we would do the same.And if after 30 years you were telling me those things really did happen, and you heard it personally, I wouldn’t doubt like you did.

Mehmet wrote: That soldiers took advantage of their power to humiliate women from the 'enemy' community.


Couldn’t say it better Mehmet.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:47 pm

Iskismet wrote: You don't get it do you MicAtCyp - asking questions is the way you learn things


The primary method of learning is by immitation and copy -no questions asked.

The second primary method is learning through your mistakes -no questions asked. One tells you the fire will hurt you, you don't beleive him, until you touch the fire and then you learn once for all, that damn it, this thing hurts!!!

When did you ask questions anyway? All I saw you doing, is throwing out biased views-the validity of which you have taken for granted- and which you cannot even support with logical arguments. Guess what method of learning you followed so far....
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Postby iskismet » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:59 pm

I give in MicAtCyp, at least Piratis will admit to not always being right - but you, you are a hopeless case.
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