Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

What I am saying Greek Island Girl is that we give so much emphasis to the eastern influence on Greek culture that we forget that there is an equal influence from the west. We harp on about Ionia etc but forget that the Greeks also had colonies in the west, Marseille, Sicily, Taranto, Sardenia and as far as Spain.

As for Alexander, it is easy to focus on his civlising drive and forget that he also behaved like a primitive tribal leader. Search the eradication of a town near Samarkand because they were descendants of Greeks who had allied with Persia 150 years earlier. He wiped them out. I find this more in line with the dominant gene theory in biology, ie the new pride leader killing the cubs of his predecessor, than a civilising influence.

I mentioned Magna Grecia because these people developed free of the Ottoman influence, as did Corfu and other Ionian islands, and there we see so many similarities with us, Cypriots, more than mainland Greeks. These similarities are fascinating and indicative of how much of our culture we retained despite being the easternmost part of Hellenism and therefore potentially more susceptible to cultural erosion. We conveniently forget that during Ottoman times it was Venice, not Istanbul, that was the repository of Greek letters and if it were not for them there would be no literature from that time today. We read Erotokritos because it was safeguarded in Venice.

Looking at daily life in Greece before 1922 it is clear that back then Greece was a western influenced culture and economy. For a valuable example check up on Faliron and its pre 1922 architecture and you will see that it resembled Cannes more than Ismir. After 1922 with 1,5 million easterners things changed and today we assume that it was always so.

I loved the Grico speaking teacher we told a Greek hazoharoumeno TV interviewer in Cypriot accented Greek:

"You say poukamiso, we say imatio, you say pigadi, we say frear, we are THE Greeks". He is right, there is more value to be found in the survival of the Greeks in Magna Grecia than in the decadence of Istanbul. But we do not want to investigate these things, there is no Megalio in talking to peasants in dialect.

[Paphitis]

It's probably in places like Italy, Corfu and other Ionian Islands, Crete and other Aegean Islands as well as Cyprus where you will find the true link bank to Ancient Greece.

Only in those isolated pockets. Those that came from the east or lived under Ottoman Rule for 400 years have bought something else which is why Greece is the way it is.

Somewhere along the line, this cradle of western civilization got bastardised.

As for Alexander The Great. The so called "Divide and Rule" strategy we talk about on this forum when we accuse Britain, was a strategy that was reportedly perfected by him. Which potentially makes it a Hellenic Military Invention.

[GreekIslandGirl]

What I am saying Greek Island Girl is that we give so much emphasis to the eastern influence on Greek culture that we forget that there is an equal influence from the west. We harp on about Ionia etc but forget that the Greeks also had colonies in the west, Marseille, Sicily, Taranto, Sardenia and as far as Spain.

As for Alexander, it is easy to focus on his civlising drive and forget that he also behaved like a primitive tribal leader. Search the eradication of a town near Samarkand because they were descendants of Greeks who had allied with Persia 150 years earlier. He wiped them out. I find this more in line with the dominant gene theory in biology, ie the new pride leader killing the cubs of his predecessor, than a civilising influence.

I mentioned Magna Grecia because these people developed free of the Ottoman influence, as did Corfu and other Ionian islands, and there we see so many similarities with us, Cypriots, more than mainland Greeks. These similarities are fascinating and indicative of how much of our culture we retained despite being the easternmost part of Hellenism and therefore potentially more susceptible to cultural erosion. We conveniently forget that during Ottoman times it was Venice, not Istanbul, that was the repository of Greek letters and if it were not for them there would be no literature from that time today. We read Erotokritos because it was safeguarded in Venice.

Looking at daily life in Greece before 1922 it is clear that back then Greece was a western influenced culture and economy. For a valuable example check up on Faliron and its pre 1922 architecture and you will see that it resembled Cannes more than Ismir. After 1922 with 1,5 million easterners things changed and today we assume that it was always so.

I loved the Grico speaking teacher we told a Greek hazoharoumeno TV interviewer in Cypriot accented Greek:

"You say poukamiso, we say imatio, you say pigadi, we say frear, we are THE Greeks". He is right, there is more value to be found in the survival of the Greeks in Magna Grecia than in the decadence of Istanbul. But we do not want to investigate these things, there is no Megalio in talking to peasants in dialect.

Again, I find a number of contradictions in your argument, Nikitas. I fail to see any closer similarities between Cyprus and Corfu for example. But, why should I see extra similarities? You suggest Corfu was not influenced by the Ottomites ... yet, we know Cyprus was (and is) ... very strongly in fact - so where would the similarities arise?

The Eastern fatalism that was notable in Ottomites is present in today's Cypriots to a large extend (the reason we were so easily subverted in 1821) and that is why we remain in extended periods of paralysis. Unlike the Greeks who resisted the Ottomites, for example Cretans, and threw off the yoke!

Alexander was such a long time ago and we (all Greeks) have very little of his fighting spirit left ... yet Westerners bring him up to embarrass us into submission - accuse us of savageries so that we remain immobilized and nonreactive to what we suffer these days.

Greeks don't have to be 'Eastern' or 'Western'. Greeks are the pivotal CENTRE! Yet, we forget that individuality is our keystone!

[Paphitis]

What I am saying Greek Island Girl is that we give so much emphasis to the eastern influence on Greek culture that we forget that there is an equal influence from the west. We harp on about Ionia etc but forget that the Greeks also had colonies in the west, Marseille, Sicily, Taranto, Sardenia and as far as Spain.

As for Alexander, it is easy to focus on his civlising drive and forget that he also behaved like a primitive tribal leader. Search the eradication of a town near Samarkand because they were descendants of Greeks who had allied with Persia 150 years earlier. He wiped them out. I find this more in line with the dominant gene theory in biology, ie the new pride leader killing the cubs of his predecessor, than a civilising influence.

I mentioned Magna Grecia because these people developed free of the Ottoman influence, as did Corfu and other Ionian islands, and there we see so many similarities with us, Cypriots, more than mainland Greeks. These similarities are fascinating and indicative of how much of our culture we retained despite being the easternmost part of Hellenism and therefore potentially more susceptible to cultural erosion. We conveniently forget that during Ottoman times it was Venice, not Istanbul, that was the repository of Greek letters and if it were not for them there would be no literature from that time today. We read Erotokritos because it was safeguarded in Venice.

Looking at daily life in Greece before 1922 it is clear that back then Greece was a western influenced culture and economy. For a valuable example check up on Faliron and its pre 1922 architecture and you will see that it resembled Cannes more than Ismir. After 1922 with 1,5 million easterners things changed and today we assume that it was always so.

I loved the Grico speaking teacher we told a Greek hazoharoumeno TV interviewer in Cypriot accented Greek:

"You say poukamiso, we say imatio, you say pigadi, we say frear, we are THE Greeks". He is right, there is more value to be found in the survival of the Greeks in Magna Grecia than in the decadence of Istanbul. But we do not want to investigate these things, there is no Megalio in talking to peasants in dialect.

Again, I find a number of contradictions in your argument, Nikitas. I fail to see any closer similarities between Cyprus and Corfu for example. But, why should I see extra similarities? You suggest Corfu was not influenced by the Ottomites ... yet, we know Cyprus was (and is) ... very strongly in fact - so where would the similarities arise?

The Eastern fatalism that was notable in Ottomites is present in today's Cypriots to a large extend (the reason we were so easily subverted in 1821) and that is why we remain in extended periods of paralysis. Unlike the Greeks who resisted the Ottomites, for example Cretans, and threw off the yoke!

Alexander was such a long time ago and we (all Greeks) have very little of his fighting spirit left ... yet Westerners bring him up to embarrass us into submission - accuse us of savageries so that we remain immobilized and nonreactive to what we suffer these days.

Greeks don't have to be 'Eastern' or 'Western'. Greeks are the pivotal CENTRE! Yet, we forget that individuality is our keystone!

That is not what Nikitas was saying. We were not referring to Greece's or Cyprus ability to fight wars. This has been proven in the past. Greece in WW2 and Cyprus had the brave anti British uprising between 1955 and 1959, against a superpower no less.

Today, people's priorities have changed. No one anywhere has the desire to die for their country. Today's generations are commonly referred to the ME generation. Materialism, money, success etc is what drives most people, not being a Partizan in the mountains like their ancestors.

Cyprus however, had the benefit of being an isolated island and not being attached to the Balkan mainland or Anatolia. Either this, or Cypriots actually benefited a great deal from British Influence from 1881 and onwards. Cypriots are different to its mainland Greek counterparts and there is no resemblance whatsoever with Anatolia. There is a clear European outlook. Cypriots are more European than Greece itself. You see it in business dealings, and you see it in the way Cyprus has been able to be generally quite successful, and also in our culture. There is not a great deal we have in common with Greece, unless of course you venture to some of the Greek Islands, and what do we have in common? Isolation.

The remainder of Greece has been greatly influenced from the East and from the Slavic North. Get Real is not wrong when he was saying that Greece has been heavily "bastardized". The only escape from this, would be outlying remote pockets such as the Ionian Islands, and perhaps some Aegean Islands as well, in particular the Dodekanissa.

There are also pockets of Hellenes in Europe such as in Italy, and it is true what they say about these being more Greek than Greece itself. These are the remnants of the Ancient Civilisation. Mainland Greece today however, is influenced by the ottomans and perhaps from other Slavic influences from the North. Cyprus has never had this.

The Ionian Islands have also been extensively linked to Italy much like Cyprus has been linked to the Venetians, Francs and Lusignans as well as the British Empire. Maybe we have been molded extensively from these influences but one thing is for sure, Mainland Greece is a completely different kettle of fish to us and something quite foreign.

Furthermore, Alexander The Great has never been a source of embarrassment at all. He has always been considered to be one of the greatest Military Geniuses of all time. But he also spread Hellenic Arts and Culture and was respected throughout the Empire. Sometimes people mock his sexuality, but these are generally small minded idiots and "half-educated" fools to use your term. Firstly, it doesn't bother me and nor should it bother anyone else. Those who are bothered by it, have issues.

Secondly, I am always perplexed how we can actually determine someone's sexuality 2500 years after. Sounds like rubbish to me.

BTW, I am going to be in Corfu, Lefkada and Zakynthos early July. I love it there and yes I have noticed that there are slightly more Western Influences there than the rest of Greece. I've always wanted to go to Zante Beach and I will finally get my chance now.

[Paphitis]

To be more accurate, somewhere along the line, Greece became predominately Eastern Influenced. You see this in the food, music, culture and for some reason Greece has never been able to live up to the "cradle of the west" reputation it had from the Ancient era.

I have no clue what caused it or whether it was a combination of factors, but something changed everything.

It could be the Ottomans, Slavic Invasions, Byzantium or as Nikitas insinuated, mass migration from Asia Minor. What is clear to me is that Greece is not as European as some would like to believe. It could be all these factors combined.

I am not a sociologist, but Greece is very different to most Western countries I know.

Doesn't mean I don't like Greece. That is untrue. Quite love Greece and more than Cyprus sometimes. There are many aspects of Greece that I find to be BETTER, than in the Western World and there are many aspects I do like. But there are so many shitty aspects of Greece too, and Greece has so many more shitty aspects about it than Cyprus other than the island of Cyprus being occupied by a foreign country which is the shittiest thing of all.

Greece is not as straightforward as other countries. Try for instance to buy a property, or invest there, or set up a business or even look for a job. It's the little things that piss you off. Everything is slow, there are not as many services and so many pitfalls.

I talk from experience. It's just not an easy place or something not many people can get use to.

[kurupetos]

It's probably in places like Italy, Corfu and other Ionian Islands, Crete and other Aegean Islands as well as Cyprus where you will find the true link bank to Ancient Greece.

Only in those isolated pockets. Those that came from the east or lived under Ottoman Rule for 400 years have bought something else which is why Greece is the way it is.

Somewhere along the line, this cradle of western civilization got bastardised.

As for Alexander The Great. The so called "Divide and Rule" strategy we talk about on this forum when we accuse Britain, was a strategy that was reportedly perfected by him. Which potentially makes it a Hellenic Military Invention.

SS Lazio?

[Lordo]

what the hell is this all about, have you people got nothing better to do.

[Paphitis]

It's probably in places like Italy, Corfu and other Ionian Islands, Crete and other Aegean Islands as well as Cyprus where you will find the true link bank to Ancient Greece.

Only in those isolated pockets. Those that came from the east or lived under Ottoman Rule for 400 years have bought something else which is why Greece is the way it is.

Somewhere along the line, this cradle of western civilization got bastardised.

As for Alexander The Great. The so called "Divide and Rule" strategy we talk about on this forum when we accuse Britain, was a strategy that was reportedly perfected by him. Which potentially makes it a Hellenic Military Invention.

SS Lazio?

Società Sportiva Lazio from the Italian Seria A - only one of the best Football teams in the world. It also bears the National Emblem of Greece.

[umit07]

It's probably in places like Italy, Corfu and other Ionian Islands, Crete and other Aegean Islands as well as Cyprus where you will find the true link bank to Ancient Greece.

Only in those isolated pockets. Those that came from the east or lived under Ottoman Rule for 400 years have bought something else which is why Greece is the way it is.

Somewhere along the line, this cradle of western civilization got bastardised.

As for Alexander The Great. The so called "Divide and Rule" strategy we talk about on this forum when we accuse Britain, was a strategy that was reportedly perfected by him. Which potentially makes it a Hellenic Military Invention.

SS Lazio?

Società Sportiva Lazio from the Italian Seria A - only one of the best Football teams in the world. It also bears the National Emblem of Greece.

I thought this was the national emblem of Greece

[Nikitas]

GIG,

If you cannot see similarities between Corfu and Cyprus I suggest you spend a few days in Corfu and hear the local accent and enjoy some savoro, ravioles and macarounes. Travel through Apulia and communicate with the local Grico speakers in your Cypriot dialect. Go to Venice by ship and enjoy sailing in the Canal of the Greeks, the biggest seaway of the city, past the huge Greek Orthodox church.

I did and realised that what is common is what was there before the Ottomans arrived. What we thought of as an Ottoman overaly in our language, cuisine, customs, was in fact a lot older than what had been presented and dates back way before the Ottomans were ever heard of. Thefore this cultural heritage is a lot more important, in my opinion, than the glory of Byzantium and Agia Sofia which is a monument and not a living culture. It is this culture that contradicts the assumption of strong Ottoman influences in our culture. What is overlooked is the possibility of the reverse happening. Like Manos Hadzidakis had said in one of his broadcasts, the only thing the Ottomans brought to Europe is the tulip, the rest is stuff they had taken from other cultures and passed it around their empire presenting it as their own.

Your depiction of GCs as fatalistic is contradicted by the writings of travellers to Cyprus in Ottoman times. Thompson comments on the differences between the fatalistic moslems and the enterprising Christians who even in their dire poverty maintained a level of culture seen in their homes and way of life.


You forget that the mainlanders revolted after they had been under Ottoman rule for 400 years, while were a lot less. Many Cypriots went to Greece and joined the revolt, showing that the spirit was present in Cyprus and was probably the cause of the pre emptive execution of Cypriot leaders and Bishops in July 1821. To assert that Cypriots lost their spirit is unfair when you consider that the revolt of 1821 was limited to Moria and Rumeli while the rest of Greece did not join. Crete, Macedonia, the Aegean islands were liberated almost a century later, and none of them took on a super power unaided, like Paphitis aptly points out above.

We must not forget that Hellenism and Greece are not always identical.

Lordo has been left behind in this discussion proving the limits of our common ottoman traits. LOL.