Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oceanside50]

For a USA style of Federation to happen in Cyprus, the island needs to adopt True Democracy. Without True Democracy, nothing will work in Cyprus. 1959 agreements have proven, that without True Democracy communities will want to do what ever they want. The north and south states cannot be GC state and TC state. No, they will need to be north and south states and ALL citizens living in those states will need to have ALL their Democratic rights respected, otherwise communal separation will occur on large scale as you have stated, which will be bad for Cyprus. Freedom of moment has to be a must, even if there is a short-term derogation on that in the beginning, but ultimately, the whole island needs to be free in every way.

USA has come a long way from its policy of the 50's, 60's and even the 70's. It is true, that individual states do have a lot of say what goes in their state, which is an argument I have made many times before, however, individual states cannot override Federal constitution. The states might try passing laws that might not be agreeable with the Federal Laws, and then it is up to the courts to sort it out. If the Federal government is in the right and the state is in the wrong and the state does dot back down, then the Federal government can and will hold back funds on any Federal projects in that state on such things as highways, bridges, ports and so on, not to mention political and economic pressure from other states also. It is not easy to get around the Federal laws.

kikapu there are many instances of states ignoring the federal government, including the reason for the american civil war. what would happen to cyprus if immigration restrictions were lifted by the tc state or derogations against gc were imposed and the tc state ignored the central government?

No my friend, individual states cannot re-write Federal Laws or write laws to change Federal Laws. Taking your immigration example for instance. ONLY Federal Government laws deal with passports, citizenship, immigration, asylum, port controls and so on. Individual states cannot change these laws, they just CAN'T!

YES THEY CAN,
states can't write federal laws but they can by pass them, with their own laws as has happened many times here in the usa. My point is, if the legislature of the Tc state enacts a law that contradicts a federal law, what could the federal government of cyprus do? with so many derogations in the annan plan, including restricting freedom of movement or suspending the right of appeal, with just one in the new plan, the courts in the tc areas could interpret a law based on that one derogation, and pass laws accordingly. The justification would be that the GC voted for such a plan therefore its legal....For instance, if there is a derogation in the new plan which forbids Gc from buying property in the Tc state, couldn't a law be passed in the legislature of the tc state forbidding the renovation of Gc churches...yes there could be because the Gc voted for no land ownership in the Tc state,therefore gc churches can be classified as gc ownership in the Tc states courts and guess what else, in the annan plan a Gc couldn't appeal the case to the federal level or the European courts...Who says that the Tc state would allow Federal employees at ports or airports...what if their laws said only constituent state workers i.e...Tc state citizens could man the posts at ports and airports?....And what constitutes a citizen of a state or the country? Is a citizen first a citizen of the state or first of the country (federal)...There are a multitude of scenarios...Heres another one, since there will be in all probability a derogation in the new plan on land ownership and freedom of movement, who guarantees that titles to Gc living in the Tc state would be issued? The constituent state would issue the title deed,as it happens in the USA, not the federal govt. The Tc state legislature enacts a law based on the land derogation which forbids issuing title deeds to Gc...any law agreement can be interpreted as a state wants, even though the Federal government court has a different interpretation...For 41 years the Tc administration and votes have elected and followed laws in the occupied areas. What makes you think that these laws or the essence of the laws in a Tc constituent state would be different.?

heres a good video that shows the conflict between the federal government and state. Theres a Federal supreme court decision that classifies marijuana as an illegal drug and places it in the same category as heroin cocaine. But California and Colorado voters have enacted laws that are contrary to the feds laws:

[Lordo]

shuuuuuuuush ocean leave him to his ignorance. we have a better laugh that way.

[B25]

For a USA style of Federation to happen in Cyprus, the island needs to adopt True Democracy. Without True Democracy, nothing will work in Cyprus. 1959 agreements have proven, that without True Democracy communities will want to do what ever they want. The north and south states cannot be GC state and TC state. No, they will need to be north and south states and ALL citizens living in those states will need to have ALL their Democratic rights respected, otherwise communal separation will occur on large scale as you have stated, which will be bad for Cyprus. Freedom of moment has to be a must, even if there is a short-term derogation on that in the beginning, but ultimately, the whole island needs to be free in every way.

USA has come a long way from its policy of the 50's, 60's and even the 70's. It is true, that individual states do have a lot of say what goes in their state, which is an argument I have made many times before, however, individual states cannot override Federal constitution. The states might try passing laws that might not be agreeable with the Federal Laws, and then it is up to the courts to sort it out. If the Federal government is in the right and the state is in the wrong and the state does dot back down, then the Federal government can and will hold back funds on any Federal projects in that state on such things as highways, bridges, ports and so on, not to mention political and economic pressure from other states also. It is not easy to get around the Federal laws.

kikapu there are many instances of states ignoring the federal government, including the reason for the american civil war. what would happen to cyprus if immigration restrictions were lifted by the tc state or derogations against gc were imposed and the tc state ignored the central government?

No my friend, individual states cannot re-write Federal Laws or write laws to change Federal Laws. Taking your immigration example for instance. ONLY Federal Government laws deal with passports, citizenship, immigration, asylum, port controls and so on. Individual states cannot change these laws, they just CAN'T!

YES THEY CAN,
states can't write federal laws but they can by pass them, with their own laws as has happened many times here in the usa. My point is, if the legislature of the Tc state enacts a law that contradicts a federal law, what could the federal government of cyprus do? with so many derogations in the annan plan, including restricting freedom of movement or suspending the right of appeal, with just one in the new plan, the courts in the tc areas could interpret a law based on that one derogation, and pass laws accordingly. The justification would be that the GC voted for such a plan therefore its legal....For instance, if there is a derogation in the new plan which forbids Gc from buying property in the Tc state, couldn't a law be passed in the legislature of the tc state forbidding the renovation of Gc churches...yes there could be because the Gc voted for no land ownership in the Tc state,therefore gc churches can be classified as gc ownership in the Tc states courts and guess what else, in the annan plan a Gc couldn't appeal the case to the federal level or the European courts...Who says that the Tc state would allow Federal employees at ports or airports...what if their laws said only constituent state workers i.e...Tc state citizens could man the posts at ports and airports?....And what constitutes a citizen of a state or the country? Is a citizen first a citizen of the state or first of the country (federal)...There are a multitude of scenarios...Heres another one, since there will be in all probability a derogation in the new plan on land ownership and freedom of movement, who guarantees that titles to Gc living in the Tc state would be issued? The constituent state would issue the title deed,as it happens in the USA, not the federal govt. The Tc state legislature enacts a law based on the land derogation which forbids issuing title deeds to Gc...any law agreement can be interpreted as a state wants, even though the Federal government court has a different interpretation...For 41 years the Tc administration and votes have elected and followed laws in the occupied areas. What makes you think that these laws or the essence of the laws in a Tc constituent state would be different.?

So going by what you just said, we should not have any other solution than outright partition with adjusted territory.
Seems we would be complete idiots to place ant law making powers in the TCs. Of course they can't be trusted. I have already said that once recognised Turkey is going to greak us up anyway.

[Lordo]

For a USA style of Federation to happen in Cyprus, the island needs to adopt True Democracy. Without True Democracy, nothing will work in Cyprus. 1959 agreements have proven, that without True Democracy communities will want to do what ever they want. The north and south states cannot be GC state and TC state. No, they will need to be north and south states and ALL citizens living in those states will need to have ALL their Democratic rights respected, otherwise communal separation will occur on large scale as you have stated, which will be bad for Cyprus. Freedom of moment has to be a must, even if there is a short-term derogation on that in the beginning, but ultimately, the whole island needs to be free in every way.

USA has come a long way from its policy of the 50's, 60's and even the 70's. It is true, that individual states do have a lot of say what goes in their state, which is an argument I have made many times before, however, individual states cannot override Federal constitution. The states might try passing laws that might not be agreeable with the Federal Laws, and then it is up to the courts to sort it out. If the Federal government is in the right and the state is in the wrong and the state does dot back down, then the Federal government can and will hold back funds on any Federal projects in that state on such things as highways, bridges, ports and so on, not to mention political and economic pressure from other states also. It is not easy to get around the Federal laws.

kikapu there are many instances of states ignoring the federal government, including the reason for the american civil war. what would happen to cyprus if immigration restrictions were lifted by the tc state or derogations against gc were imposed and the tc state ignored the central government?

No my friend, individual states cannot re-write Federal Laws or write laws to change Federal Laws. Taking your immigration example for instance. ONLY Federal Government laws deal with passports, citizenship, immigration, asylum, port controls and so on. Individual states cannot change these laws, they just CAN'T!

YES THEY CAN,
states can't write federal laws but they can by pass them, with their own laws as has happened many times here in the usa. My point is, if the legislature of the Tc state enacts a law that contradicts a federal law, what could the federal government of cyprus do? with so many derogations in the annan plan, including restricting freedom of movement or suspending the right of appeal, with just one in the new plan, the courts in the tc areas could interpret a law based on that one derogation, and pass laws accordingly. The justification would be that the GC voted for such a plan therefore its legal....For instance, if there is a derogation in the new plan which forbids Gc from buying property in the Tc state, couldn't a law be passed in the legislature of the tc state forbidding the renovation of Gc churches...yes there could be because the Gc voted for no land ownership in the Tc state,therefore gc churches can be classified as gc ownership in the Tc states courts and guess what else, in the annan plan a Gc couldn't appeal the case to the federal level or the European courts...Who says that the Tc state would allow Federal employees at ports or airports...what if their laws said only constituent state workers i.e...Tc state citizens could man the posts at ports and airports?....And what constitutes a citizen of a state or the country? Is a citizen first a citizen of the state or first of the country (federal)...There are a multitude of scenarios...Heres another one, since there will be in all probability a derogation in the new plan on land ownership and freedom of movement, who guarantees that titles to Gc living in the Tc state would be issued? The constituent state would issue the title deed,as it happens in the USA, not the federal govt. The Tc state legislature enacts a law based on the land derogation which forbids issuing title deeds to Gc...any law agreement can be interpreted as a state wants, even though the Federal government court has a different interpretation...For 41 years the Tc administration and votes have elected and followed laws in the occupied areas. What makes you think that these laws or the essence of the laws in a Tc constituent state would be different.?

So going by what you just said, we should not have any other solution than outright partition with adjusted territory.
Seems we would be complete idiots to place ant law making powers in the TCs. Of course they can't be trusted. I have already said that once recognised Turkey is going to greak us up anyway.

feel free to ask the un to begin a fair exchange and recognition talks dear boy.

[B25]

A fair exchange is you get 12% as was your position in 74. We have little hope getting turkey out so we can for tense and purpose consider the north lost. Partition would free us from the parasite burden. If it were up to me, i would have done it ages ago. You cannot be trusted pure and simple. As for the UN, what a waste of f skin. There are just tourists in uniform.
So who do I have to ask?

[Pyrpolizer]

interesting that you think it is not significant that anastasiades is refereed to as the gc leader rather then president.

The interesting thing is that Kikapu got into the trouble of answering to your ignorance. I saw the question repeated over and over again, yet I felt too bored to even bother about it.in ALL local UN announcements concerning the negotiations, they were always both referred as the "2 leaders" and this backdates to decades

[Pyrpolizer]

kikapu there are many instances of states ignoring the federal government, including the reason for the american civil war. what would happen to cyprus if immigration restrictions were lifted by the tc state or derogations against gc were imposed and the tc state ignored the central government?... etc

OC, do you know the story of the Cypriot girl who burst into tears by imagining all the bad things that could happen to her life?
The story's called "an pantefto je kamo yio, je fkalo ton Vasili-->
If I ever get married, and have a son and name him Vasili...
and if he grows up and gets up the ladder to cut grapes..
and if he falls down and dies,
Ahhh ton yio mou ton Vasili...
Ahh,my son Vasili...

[Kikapu]

For a USA style of Federation to happen in Cyprus, the island needs to adopt True Democracy. Without True Democracy, nothing will work in Cyprus. 1959 agreements have proven, that without True Democracy communities will want to do what ever they want. The north and south states cannot be GC state and TC state. No, they will need to be north and south states and ALL citizens living in those states will need to have ALL their Democratic rights respected, otherwise communal separation will occur on large scale as you have stated, which will be bad for Cyprus. Freedom of moment has to be a must, even if there is a short-term derogation on that in the beginning, but ultimately, the whole island needs to be free in every way.

USA has come a long way from its policy of the 50's, 60's and even the 70's. It is true, that individual states do have a lot of say what goes in their state, which is an argument I have made many times before, however, individual states cannot override Federal constitution. The states might try passing laws that might not be agreeable with the Federal Laws, and then it is up to the courts to sort it out. If the Federal government is in the right and the state is in the wrong and the state does dot back down, then the Federal government can and will hold back funds on any Federal projects in that state on such things as highways, bridges, ports and so on, not to mention political and economic pressure from other states also. It is not easy to get around the Federal laws.

kikapu there are many instances of states ignoring the federal government, including the reason for the american civil war. what would happen to cyprus if immigration restrictions were lifted by the tc state or derogations against gc were imposed and the tc state ignored the central government?

No my friend, individual states cannot re-write Federal Laws or write laws to change Federal Laws. Taking your immigration example for instance. ONLY Federal Government laws deal with passports, citizenship, immigration, asylum, port controls and so on. Individual states cannot change these laws, they just CAN'T!

YES THEY CAN,
states can't write federal laws but they can by pass them, with their own laws as has happened many times here in the usa. My point is, if the legislature of the Tc state enacts a law that contradicts a federal law, what could the federal government of cyprus do? with so many derogations in the annan plan, including restricting freedom of movement or suspending the right of appeal, with just one in the new plan, the courts in the tc areas could interpret a law based on that one derogation, and pass laws accordingly. The justification would be that the GC voted for such a plan therefore its legal....For instance, if there is a derogation in the new plan which forbids Gc from buying property in the Tc state, couldn't a law be passed in the legislature of the tc state forbidding the renovation of Gc churches...yes there could be because the Gc voted for no land ownership in the Tc state,therefore gc churches can be classified as gc ownership in the Tc states courts and guess what else, in the annan plan a Gc couldn't appeal the case to the federal level or the European courts...Who says that the Tc state would allow Federal employees at ports or airports...what if their laws said only constituent state workers i.e...Tc state citizens could man the posts at ports and airports?....And what constitutes a citizen of a state or the country? Is a citizen first a citizen of the state or first of the country (federal)...There are a multitude of scenarios...Heres another one, since there will be in all probability a derogation in the new plan on land ownership and freedom of movement, who guarantees that titles to Gc living in the Tc state would be issued? The constituent state would issue the title deed,as it happens in the USA, not the federal govt. The Tc state legislature enacts a law based on the land derogation which forbids issuing title deeds to Gc...any law agreement can be interpreted as a state wants, even though the Federal government court has a different interpretation...For 41 years the Tc administration and votes have elected and followed laws in the occupied areas. What makes you think that these laws or the essence of the laws in a Tc constituent state would be different.?

heres a good video that shows the conflict between the federal government and state. Theres a Federal supreme court decision that classifies marijuana as an illegal drug and places it in the same category as heroin cocaine. But California and Colorado voters have enacted laws that are contrary to the feds laws:

Ocean, you are basing your arguments on flawed non democratic and Human Rights violation Federal laws as the Annan Plan had, so naturally state laws could spin off those bad Federal laws to more bad state laws. Why do you think the AP failed and why do you thinks people like Lordo is so upset. Also, in the AP, there would not have been a strong central government. States and central government would have ALL had equal status with no hierarchy laws. In the USA we do have a strong central government, the Federal Government and hierarchy laws do apply. That's how it should be in any agreement in Cyprus also.

Annan Plan

2. The {common state} shall fully respect and not infringe upon the powers and functions of the {component states} under this Constitution. Each {component state} shall fully respect and not infringe upon the powers and functions of the {common state} or the other {component state} under this Constitution. There shall be no hierarchy between the laws of the {common state} and those of the {component states}.



As for the marijuana use in some states against Federal laws, it is all done so for "Medicinal purposes", which the Feds go along with it under tight control. No different than when we had the prohibition with alcohol in the 1920s/30s, where only those who needed for "Medicinal Purposes" could drink.......legally

[Pyrpolizer]

btw medical Marijuanna has already been introduced in Cyprus and the Ministry of Agriculture is trying to persuade farmers to start plantations..

[Lordo]

pypro leave kikapu alone he can defend himslef, badly but he can do it himself.


look i am not against division. if you dont want the tcs that is fair enough. but i am not accepting 1 donum for donum basis my softalar land for your your northern cheap rubbish. just the same as i will not be exchanging my limasol house for one in girne and my shirley hoous for one in newcastlestan land. sure will sell and buy but on free market.