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Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby observer » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:30 pm

That's the real problem with democracy. Sometimes the electorate elect people we don't like.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:49 pm

The results of the most recent general elections in Turkey have been interpreted, among other things, as a rejection of Erdoğan's ambitions to create an executive presidency with himself at the helm, so perhaps Erdoğan should also have the grace to bow to the will of the people and realise that elections do not always produce the result that we want.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby observer » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:56 pm

Erdoğan wants a stronger executive style presidency.
The way he can get this is by changing the constitution. The way the constitution can be changed is by a two-thirds majority in the parliament.
The way you get a two thirds majority in the parliament is by having elections. This is quite democratic, even if some disagree with it.

Executive style presidencies are not uncommon around the world – USA and France spring to mind. Also the RoC, which I believe is the only EU state with a president who is both Head of State and Head of the Government.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:24 pm

observer wrote:Erdoğan wants a stronger executive style presidency.
The way he can get this is by changing the constitution. The way the constitution can be changed is by a two-thirds majority in the parliament.
The way you get a two thirds majority in the parliament is by having elections. This is quite democratic, even if some disagree with it.

Executive style presidencies are not uncommon around the world – USA and France spring to mind. Also the RoC, which I believe is the only EU state with a president who is both Head of State and Head of the Government.


But he doesn't have that system at the moment, and the electorate did not give him that mandate in the last elections, yet he is still taking the decisions and pulling the strings behind the scenes in a way that the constitution does not permit. To say that everything in Turkey is hunky dory and the rule of law is being observed is very wide of the truth.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Lordo » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:09 pm

if you trace back how erdogan coming to power you will find the yanks at the root of it. it was the yanks who got the army to take control change constitution and set up what looks like democracy but actually it is just a illusion. it is the country in the world with a dam system of 10% and votes for anybody below 10% is given to the parties who come first and second, instead of asking people to give their second preferences. as bad as he has been,the yanks have been bankrolling his activities to the tune of billions of dollars.

will they ever learn.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby observer » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:18 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
observer wrote:Erdoğan wants a stronger executive style presidency.
The way he can get this is by changing the constitution. The way the constitution can be changed is by a two-thirds majority in the parliament.
The way you get a two thirds majority in the parliament is by having elections. This is quite democratic, even if some disagree with it.

Executive style presidencies are not uncommon around the world – USA and France spring to mind. Also the RoC, which I believe is the only EU state with a president who is both Head of State and Head of the Government.


But he doesn't have that system at the moment, and the electorate did not give him that mandate in the last elections, yet he is still taking the decisions and pulling the strings behind the scenes in a way that the constitution does not permit. To say that everything in Turkey is hunky dory and the rule of law is being observed is very wide of the truth.


As you rightly observe, the electorate did not give Erdoğan a mandate to change the constitution. He has not changed it.

If you were more specific about how you believe Erdoğan is "pulling the strings behind the scenes" I could consider it. I'd ask you to consider whether or not there is more than a little pulling of strings out of the public gaze in any political set up - the EU being a prime candidate for consideration.

I'd agree that all is not "hunky dory" in Turkey, but in Erdoğan's favour is a greater acknowledgement of Kurdish rights than at any other time in the Republic's history - not perfect but you have to carry the electorate with you - and the presence of ISIS next door with some terrorists most probably mixed in with the many genuine refugees now in Turkey. It's not the first time that Turkey has acted as a safe haven for Kurdish refugees. Remember Gulf War 1.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Maximus » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:56 pm

Lordo wrote:if you trace back how erdogan coming to power you will find the yanks at the root of it. it was the yanks who got the army to take control change constitution and set up what looks like democracy but actually it is just a illusion. it is the country in the world with a dam system of 10% and votes for anybody below 10% is given to the parties who come first and second, instead of asking people to give their second preferences. as bad as he has been,the yanks have been bankrolling his activities to the tune of billions of dollars.

will they ever learn.


Im genuinely interested in how he came to power and how the yanks helped put him there re bordo. Can you tell more?

You know what that means then dont you? Once he has served his usefulness, he will be hung and the country will be be devastated like the other examples in the middles east and north Africa.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Lordo » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:11 pm

Maximus wrote:
Lordo wrote:if you trace back how erdogan coming to power you will find the yanks at the root of it. it was the yanks who got the army to take control change constitution and set up what looks like democracy but actually it is just a illusion. it is the country in the world with a dam system of 10% and votes for anybody below 10% is given to the parties who come first and second, instead of asking people to give their second preferences. as bad as he has been,the yanks have been bankrolling his activities to the tune of billions of dollars.

will they ever learn.


Im genuinely interested in how he came to power and how the yanks helped put him there re bordo. Can you tell more?

You know what that means then dont you? Once he has served his usefulness, he will be hung and the country will be be devastated like the other examples in the middles east and north Africa.

en onussu dje ksigollisen. a man does not train a guard dog for protection and then kill it. only greeks do that.

hang on a minune, did you not understand a single word of what i said about erdogan and how the yanks come to power. do i have to take you back to firquin ab firquin c. am i firquin talking greek gavole. if erdogan goes beyond his usefulness he will be replaced by a new erdogan. it aint easy to please yanke interests.

i cant understand it but i am feeling generous today and will help you but you have to do your homework. find out these two things.
1. who created the current constitution of terggy and how did the yanks control them.
2. who is gulen and how and where did he make his money and how did he help erdogan come to power.

now i want an essay of at least 1000 words from you by tomorrow or you shall have detention followed by 50 lordo lashes with the bull whip.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:29 am

observer wrote:If you were more specific about how you believe Erdoğan is "pulling the strings behind the scenes" I could consider it.


Let us look at what Erdoğan himself has said recently:

"Türkiye'nin yönetim sistemi fiilen değişti" (Turkey’s system of government has de facto changed.)

http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/siya ... isti_.html

In other words he himself admits that he is not acting as President in accordance with the constitution, and he wants the system to be changed to sanction his de facto dictatorship regardless of the fact that the will of the Turkish people as expressed on 7 June was NOT for a change to a presidential system.

There is a wonderful Turkish expression ‘şecâ'at arzederken merd-i kipti sirkatin söyler’ which I think fits this situation perfectly.

Essentially, it has nothing to do with noble arguments about the advantages and disadvantages of a presidential system vis-a-vis a prime-ministerial system, it is just a subterfuge, Putin style, to add a constitutional veneer to the cementing of the Erdoğan dictatorship which will lead to the creation of a ruling dynasty, with Bilal being groomed to be the next to the throne. I believe you are being deliberately disingenuous in pretending not to know this. I don’t believe this is what Turkey or the Turkish people deserve, and I hope he will fail.
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Re: Erdogan's Megalomania Fuels Terrorism!

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:52 am

Lordo wrote:if you trace back how erdogan coming to power you will find the yanks at the root of it. it was the yanks who got the army to take control change constitution and set up what looks like democracy but actually it is just a illusion. it is the country in the world with a dam system of 10% and votes for anybody below 10% is given to the parties who come first and second, instead of asking people to give their second preferences. as bad as he has been,the yanks have been bankrolling his activities to the tune of billions of dollars.

will they ever learn.


You don't think the way that the Gulf emirates were pouring vast amounts of money in the direction of Islamists determined to overthrow the secular Republic of Turkey, particularly the Gülentists, ever since the 1980's (and, yes, this was in the atmosphere created after the American sponsored 1980 coup) had anything to do with it?
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