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Peace at what cost!

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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:13 am

Everybody arrived to Cyprus from somewhere else. Everybody arrived to every place at some point in time. What is important is WHEN this happened. The Greeks arrived on mainland Greece at some point some 1000s years ago. Why are the Greeks native there and every other Greek island and not in Cyprus? The English arrived in Britain much later, 1500 years ago, are the English not native in Britain? Nearly 3500 years makes Greeks more native in Cyprus than most other people in most other countries! On the other hand the Turks came to Cyprus at the same time that the English and other Europeans were colonizing America, Africa and Australia and the English and Europeans in general are not considered native in those places. The Greeks are the native people of Cyprus.... Erolz, you "dispute" this fact just like you "dispute" that the land you occupy actually belongs to a Greek Cypriot. In short you dispute everything that doesn't suit the Turkish expansionism on our lands. If you want to be one with the native Cypriot population then you should change yourself to become one of us. You can't demand from the native people to change their identity to some "lower common denominator" with every foreign culture that is brought to Cyprus (although that doesn't mean the foreign culture will have no influence on ours.... which is why I can now tell you to "assihtir" ;) ).
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Get Real! » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:28 am

Sotos wrote:Everybody arrived to Cyprus from somewhere else. Everybody arrived to every place at some point in time. What is important is WHEN this happened. The Greeks arrived on mainland Greece at some point some 1000s years ago. Why are the Greeks native there and every other Greek island and not in Cyprus? The English arrived in Britain much later, 1500 years ago, are the English not native in Britain? Nearly 3500 years makes Greeks more native in Cyprus than most other people in most other countries! On the other hand the Turks came to Cyprus at the same time that the English and other Europeans were colonizing America, Africa and Australia and the English and Europeans in general are not considered native in those places. The Greeks are the native people of Cyprus.... Erolz, you "dispute" this fact just like you "dispute" that the land you occupy actually belongs to a Greek Cypriot. In short you dispute everything that doesn't suit the Turkish expansionism on our lands. If you want to be one with the native Cypriot population then you should change yourself to become one of us. You can't demand from the native people to change their identity to some "lower common denominator" with every foreign culture that is brought to Cyprus (although that doesn't mean the foreign culture will have no influence on ours.... which is why I can now tell you to "assihtir" ;) ).

Cyprus’ exclusive indigenousness had already been TAKEN by those who had arrived on Cyprus from the Levant maybe 10-15000BC, and gradually set up the Cypriot civilization which went on to parlay with the ancient Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and other superpowers of the time.

Cyprus did not acquire a civilization when your imaginary ancestors arrived here in 1000BC as you seem to assume but it was already well established and ongoing and there is TANGIBLE evidence in museums to prove that unlike your Greek mythologies. :)
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:08 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Sotos wrote:Everybody arrived to Cyprus from somewhere else. Everybody arrived to every place at some point in time. What is important is WHEN this happened. The Greeks arrived on mainland Greece at some point some 1000s years ago. Why are the Greeks native there and every other Greek island and not in Cyprus? The English arrived in Britain much later, 1500 years ago, are the English not native in Britain? Nearly 3500 years makes Greeks more native in Cyprus than most other people in most other countries! On the other hand the Turks came to Cyprus at the same time that the English and other Europeans were colonizing America, Africa and Australia and the English and Europeans in general are not considered native in those places. The Greeks are the native people of Cyprus.... Erolz, you "dispute" this fact just like you "dispute" that the land you occupy actually belongs to a Greek Cypriot. In short you dispute everything that doesn't suit the Turkish expansionism on our lands. If you want to be one with the native Cypriot population then you should change yourself to become one of us. You can't demand from the native people to change their identity to some "lower common denominator" with every foreign culture that is brought to Cyprus (although that doesn't mean the foreign culture will have no influence on ours.... which is why I can now tell you to "assihtir" ;) ).

Cyprus’ exclusive indigenousness had already been TAKEN by those who had arrived on Cyprus from the Levant maybe 10-15000BC, and gradually set up the Cypriot civilization which went on to parlay with the ancient Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and other superpowers of the time.

Cyprus did not acquire a civilization when your imaginary ancestors arrived here in 1000BC as you seem to assume but it was already well established and ongoing and there is TANGIBLE evidence in museums to prove that unlike your Greek mythologies. :)


Nobody said that there were no people living in Cyprus before the Greeks. But that is true for nearly EVERY other country in the world. Humans existed for about 200.000 years... but no modern day ethnic groups existed for 95% of that time. If we follow your theory then Greeks can not be native to mainland Greece either. The French can't be native to France, the English and Celts can't be native to Britain etc. What is well established is when the Greeks came to Cyprus.... when you go to a museum next time keep your eyes open because it seems you see only what you want to see. About those other people before we don't even know when exactly they came, from where they came (no proof that it was the Levant), we don't know what language they were speaking etc. It might be that they came from different places at different times and spoke different kinds of languages. They didn't know how to write for most of that time, so no written evidence. Chirokitians were very short, the people that lived in Cyprus later not so. So possibly AT LEAST 2 unrelated kind of populations. We know FAR LESS about them than we know about the Greeks in Cyprus.
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Lordo » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:04 pm

nobody gives a shit when greaks invaded cyprus boy, take your greakness and fuck off to greace
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby erolz66 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:16 pm

Sotos wrote:Everybody arrived to Cyprus from somewhere else.


Some people arrived in Cyprus and they were the first to do so and the culture and language they used was not Greek.

Sotos wrote: What is important is WHEN this happened.


Says who ? Ask a naturalist if Donkeys are native / indigenous to Cyprus and he will tell you they are not. He will not say well it is all down to when they were introduced to Cyprus and if they were before X then they are native and after X they are not. I know this because when I worked on the EU funded bi-communal Natura project in Cyprus I asked the Dutch EU expert that had been sent to train us all this very question.

Sotos wrote: Why are the Greeks native there and every other Greek island and not in Cyprus?


Who says this ?

Sotos wrote: Nearly 3500 years makes Greeks more native in Cyprus than most other people in most other countries!


More native. Less native . We are this much native --------------------------- and you are this much native -------------. Yet this is not what you ever say, except under pressure. Your mantra is actually

Sotos wrote:The Greeks are the native people of Cyprus....


This is a political mantra. It is not one based in scientific classification nor one based in actual fact, which would as recognise as you do when forced to that it is a matter of degrees not absolutes. In other countries like the UK, the usage of terms like 'native English' are the language of far right extremist groups, like the NF and the English league, they are not the language of mainstream political discourse. There is a reason why this is so,

Sotos wrote: Erolz, you "dispute" this fact just like you "dispute" that the land you occupy actually belongs to a Greek Cypriot.


Yet GR disputes it as well ? Do you dispute that the land my house is built on is disputed ? Yes it is GC owned land but it is not the same as GC land in the south is it ? The use of 'disputed land' is just a label that I used in another thread taken out of context from that thread and used to differentiate it from other kinds of land owned by GC. You could replace the labels I used in that thread from disputed to stolen and undisputed to no longer stolen, if you wanted to and it would not change the point I was making in that thread one iota.

Sotos wrote:If you want to be one with the native Cypriot population then you should change yourself to become one of us. [/qupte]

Again this would be the language of far right nationalism in countries like the UK. If I want to be one with Cypriots who are, to use your terms, more native than I am as a less native Cypriot I should have supported the desire that Cyprus should not exist as a nation and state at all but be given to a country that is not Cyprus and ruled by people who are not Cypriots, on the basis that that the people of this other country colonised Cyprus earlier than those of my ethic background did. That is what you are saying.

Sotos wrote: You can't demand from the native people to


from the 'more native' people you mean

Sotos wrote:change their identity to some "lower common denominator"


I do not see a Cypriot identity as a 'lower common denominator', that Greek or any other. I see it as a higher common denominator for Cypriots. Cypriot identity and culture is a combination of elements of Greek, of Turkish and any other numbers of identities and cultures all moulded and shaped by things uniquely Cypriot that in combination are synergisticly greater than the sum of its parts. I can yearn, I think, that Cypriots who truly want a unified Cypriot nation would choose to see Cypriot identity as a 'higher denominator' than just the Greek part or just the Turkish part or any other individual part and would not try and argue that Cypriot identity means and can only Greek identity based on you being 'more' native (earlier and more complete colonisers) than the other parts.
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby DrCyprus » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:23 pm

erolz66 wrote:I do not see a Cypriot identity as a 'lower common denominator', that Greek or any other. I see it as a higher common denominator for Cypriots. Cypriot identity and culture is a combination of elements of Greek, of Turkish and any other numbers of identities and cultures all moulded and shaped by things uniquely Cypriot that in combination are synergisticly greater than the sum of its parts. I can yearn, I think, that Cypriots who truly want a unified Cypriot nation would choose to see Cypriot identity as a 'higher denominator' than just the Greek part or just the Turkish part or any other individual part and would not try and argue that Cypriot identity means and can only Greek identity based on you being 'more' native (earlier and more complete colonisers) than the other parts.


You get it! :)
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:18 pm

Some people arrived in Cyprus and they were the first to do so and the culture and language they used was not Greek.

Irrelevant. Tomorrow they might discover an older prehistoric settlement by a different kind of people not related to the ones we know about. This is not what defines who is native.

Says who ? Ask a naturalist if Donkeys are native / indigenous to Cyprus and he will tell you they are not.


"Donkeys" are a species. The equivalent question would be if "Humans are native to Cyprus". Language and culture is not something that replicates by DNA, so don't confuse irrelevant concepts.

This is a political mantra. It is not one based in scientific classification nor one based in actual fact, which would as recognise as you do when forced to that it is a matter of degrees not absolutes. In other countries like the UK, the usage of terms like 'native English' are the language of far right extremist groups, like the NF and the English league, they are not the language of mainstream political discourse.


England is not currently occupied by a foreign country whose Settlers were brought there by that same invader. And those other people accept to be minorities without any kind of special privileges. This is why they use the political language they do. If you act the same as those minorities in the UK then I can call you however you want to be called, just like they do in the UK. But since at this point we are at war and I don't care about your feelings since you show no respect to our rights, I will tell it to you as it really is. Yes, it might be a matter of degrees but there is also a certain threshold that you have to be over to be called native. Somebody that came to Cyprus yesterday can't be "a little bit native". And as I explained already none of the people of powers that colonized territories at the same time that the Turks colonized Cyprus are called "natives" of those lands, so why should it be different in your case?

Yet GR disputes it as well ? Do you dispute that the land my house is built on is disputed ? Yes it is GC owned land but it is not the same as GC land in the south is it ? The use of 'disputed land' is just a label that I used in another thread taken out of context from that thread and used to differentiate it from other kinds of land owned by GC. You could replace the labels I used in that thread from disputed to stolen and undisputed to no longer stolen, if you wanted to and it would not change the point I was making in that thread one iota.


1. GR is just an idiot. 2. The land you live on is owned by a GC, period. The only difference is that the GC can't access his property because of the occupation. The word "disputed" is "just a label", just like "native" is just a label. The point is that you are trying to use all labels to serve your political agenda, and this is why it matters.

I do not see a Cypriot identity as a 'lower common denominator', that Greek or any other. I see it as a higher common denominator for Cypriots. Cypriot identity and culture is a combination of elements of Greek, of Turkish and any other numbers of identities and cultures all moulded and shaped by things uniquely Cypriot that in combination are synergisticly greater than the sum of its parts. I can yearn, I think, that Cypriots who truly want a unified Cypriot nation would choose to see Cypriot identity as a 'higher denominator' than just the Greek part or just the Turkish part or any other individual part and would not try and argue that Cypriot identity means and can only Greek identity based on you being 'more' native (earlier and more complete colonisers) than the other parts.


If our identity is made by 100 things and yours by 100 things and then 20 of those things are the same and the 80 different, then the "Cypriot identity" as you understand it would be just those 20 things. Language, religion, culture, history etc would, for the most part, NOT be part of such lower common denominator identity, because they are not common between us. It is one thing if some elements of your culture, language etc has entered ours (and vice versa), it is one thing to respect each others identities, and quite another thing to occupy our land and blackmail us to give up our identity (among many other things). If you want peace you have to finally ACCEPT our identity instead of trying to tell us what our identity should be!
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Lordo » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:23 pm

how many times must i say it if you feel you are greak fuck off to greace where all the other greaks live.

it seems you have a language problem. let me tell you in greak.

na bais stanatheman din ellathan. hade yallah.
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby Sotos » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:37 pm

Lordo wrote:how many times must i say it if you feel you are greak fuck off to greace where all the other greaks live.

it seems you have a language problem. let me tell you in greak.

na bais stanatheman din ellathan. hade yallah.


Cyprus is just as Greek as any other Greek place and it is our homeland. On the other hand you are apparently not compatible with the native majority of Cyprus and therefore it is you who should fuck off.
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Re: Peace at what cost!

Postby erolz66 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:16 pm

Sotos wrote:If our identity is made by 100 things and yours by 100 things and then 20 of those things are the same and the 80 different, then the "Cypriot identity" as you understand it would be just those 20 things. Language, religion, culture, history etc would, for the most part, NOT be part of such lower common denominator identity, because they are not common between us. It is one thing if some elements of your culture, language etc has entered ours (and vice versa), it is one thing to respect each others identities, and quite another thing to occupy our land and blackmail us to give up our identity (among many other things). If you want peace you have to finally ACCEPT our identity instead of trying to tell us what our identity should be!


Your maths is the maths of division. You see yourself as a Greek living in Cyprus made up of 100 'things'. I say as a Greek Cypriot you are more than 100 things - you are Greek plus , made up of 140 things not just the 100 that you want to limit yourself too. Look up what the word synergy means. Look at language. Of my fathers generation I would estimate that 70% of my family of that age spoke Greek as well as Turkish. Turkish plus. Take religion. Of my fathers generation they have an understanding and insight of the Greek Orthodox religion vastly greater than those living in Turkey did or do. Turkish plus. Or the other way round Greeks where a much larger number of them also speak Turkish than Greeks any where else - Greek plus.

I am not telling you what your identity should be. I am explaining that in my view and to my mind when you CHOSE to want to 'just' be Greek, when you CHOSE to want to be Cypriot minus, when you could chose to be 'full' Cypriot (Greek plus, Turkish plus, Armenian plus , Latin plus) you actually diminish yourself, diminish Cyprus as a whole and diminish the chances of making a better Cyprus where it truly does not matter if you are GC or TC or any other kind of Cypriot compared to how much it matters to just simply be Cypriot.
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