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Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Kikapu » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:07 pm

MR-from-NG wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Sadly, the USA appears to be standing behind Erdoğan, though:

The United States said it rejected the premise that the Turkish government was in league with the militants to smuggle oil. "We frankly see no evidence, none, to support such an accusation," State Department spokesman Mark Toner said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/ ... trsWeGq.97


Perception is not always the reality, Tim. America and NATO are boosting Erdogan's ego for him to get dirty and nasty with Putin, then they will stand back as Putins wipes the floor with Erdogan. Erdogan is already in deep shit with Putin by being called a terrorist and smuggling oil for the terrorist. That's the kind of label Erdogan will not be able to get rid off no matter what the Americans and NATO says on behalf of Erdogan. The damage has been already done and Erdogan is now a damaged goods.


That's just water off a duck's back Kiks. The man has no shame, he has the skin of a crocodile. If you spit in his face he will think i'ts a raining. I just can't believe how stupid and illiterate the Turks are to keep a lunatic like him in power for all these years.


MR-from-NG, you have stated it well regarding the Turks, but I will add my 2 cents also.

Turks are nothing but sheep where they believe everything they hear from their leaders, from TV hosts on various programs and are dumbed down with ALL the rubbish Soap TV shows. The funny thing is, the Turks claim to be very proud people, but I don't know why. What great things has the country of Turkey have done since it's establishment in 1923? Although Erdogan is corrupt as they come, so has been past Turkish leaders, as well as those that will come after him in the future. Muslim countries in general all fall into this category I'm sorry to say. The common denominator has always been not having True Democracy, Human Rights and International laws for their people and country. That's why these Muslim country's leaders have all become "useful & useless idiots" to the west. People deserve the leaders they choose and the Sheepish Turks are no different, but the problem is, it is hard to get rid of corrupt leaders in Muslim countries once they have gained power, unlike countries in the west.
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Kikapu » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:23 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Sadly, the USA appears to be standing behind Erdoğan, though:

The United States said it rejected the premise that the Turkish government was in league with the militants to smuggle oil. "We frankly see no evidence, none, to support such an accusation," State Department spokesman Mark Toner said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/ ... trsWeGq.97


Perception is not always the reality, Tim. America and NATO are boosting Erdogan's ego for him to get dirty and nasty with Putin, then they will stand back as Putins wipes the floor with Erdogan. Erdogan is already in deep shit with Putin by being called a terrorist and smuggling oil for the terrorist. That's the kind of label Erdogan will not be able to get rid off no matter what the Americans and NATO says on behalf of Erdogan. The damage has been already done and Erdogan is now a damaged goods.


I hope you're right. However, it seemed to me at the time of the recent elections in Turkey (the ones Erdoğan insisted be held because he didn't recognise the result in June!) was a perfect opportunity to get rid of him. If a non-AKP government could have been formed, the December 2013 anti-corruption investigations could have been reopened - and just the material that became public knowledge at that time makes it clear there is plenty to convict him and his crooked family and cronies on - and that would have been the end. The situation in the run up to the poll appeared to be so evenly balanced that surely a few clever interventions here and there could have swung things in the opposition's way. Instead, it looks like he was able to rig the poll with impunity. OK, maybe they genuinely didn't want to get embroiled in the elections, or perhaps it isn't as easy as I think to influence the result.
I just hope the Russians have some substantive evidence to back these claims up. Everything so far is very circumstantial and are things that most observers have been aware of anyway.


Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Mustiejodu » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:22 pm

Kikapu wrote:
MR-from-NG wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Sadly, the USA appears to be standing behind Erdoğan, though:

The United States said it rejected the premise that the Turkish government was in league with the militants to smuggle oil. "We frankly see no evidence, none, to support such an accusation," State Department spokesman Mark Toner said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/ ... trsWeGq.97


Perception is not always the reality, Tim. America and NATO are boosting Erdogan's ego for him to get dirty and nasty with Putin, then they will stand back as Putins wipes the floor with Erdogan. Erdogan is already in deep shit with Putin by being called a terrorist and smuggling oil for the terrorist. That's the kind of label Erdogan will not be able to get rid off no matter what the Americans and NATO says on behalf of Erdogan. The damage has been already done and Erdogan is now a damaged goods.


That's just water off a duck's back Kiks. The man has no shame, he has the skin of a crocodile. If you spit in his face he will think i'ts a raining. I just can't believe how stupid and illiterate the Turks are to keep a lunatic like him in power for all these years.


MR-from-NG, you have stated it well regarding the Turks, but I will add my 2 cents also.

Turks are nothing but sheep where they believe everything they hear from their leaders, from TV hosts on various programs and are dumbed down with ALL the rubbish Soap TV shows. The funny thing is, the Turks claim to be very proud people, but I don't know why. What great things has the country of Turkey have done since it's establishment in 1923? Although Erdogan is corrupt as they come, so has been past Turkish leaders, as well as those that will come after him in the future. Muslim countries in general all fall into this category I'm sorry to say. The common denominator has always been not having True Democracy, Human Rights and International laws for their people and country. That's why these Muslim country's leaders have all become "useful & useless idiots" to the west. People deserve the leaders they choose and the Sheepish Turks are no different, but the problem is, it is hard to get rid of corrupt leaders in Muslim countries once they have gained power, unlike countries in the west.


Proabaly over 50% of Turkey have people very uneducated hence why he has massive followers .If my figures are correct his party won over 50% of the vote which tells you the type of people that exist in turkey other than the more rational thinkers . Unfortunately the worse kind of people are in power and are supported by like minded people. I have seen turkish girls that I knew in the Uk that were modern now wearing that head gear. they have taken over Turkey and sadly the end result will probably be civil war with liberall minded people like me against these backward people who think they are in the 16th century.

Your wrong because in 1915 the corrupt Ottoman empire was overtaken By KEMALIST . whats happened now is the same corruption has returned. Turkey needs another Kemal attaturk.

When you say countries in the West which countries are you specifically referring to ?

It is not just muslim countries that have corruption your just totally anti-muslim . Look at russia. how long has putin been in power ?
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Mustiejodu » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:27 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Sadly, the USA appears to be standing behind Erdoğan, though:

The United States said it rejected the premise that the Turkish government was in league with the militants to smuggle oil. "We frankly see no evidence, none, to support such an accusation," State Department spokesman Mark Toner said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/ ... trsWeGq.97


Perception is not always the reality, Tim. America and NATO are boosting Erdogan's ego for him to get dirty and nasty with Putin, then they will stand back as Putins wipes the floor with Erdogan. Erdogan is already in deep shit with Putin by being called a terrorist and smuggling oil for the terrorist. That's the kind of label Erdogan will not be able to get rid off no matter what the Americans and NATO says on behalf of Erdogan. The damage has been already done and Erdogan is now a damaged goods.


I hope you're right. However, it seemed to me at the time of the recent elections in Turkey (the ones Erdoğan insisted be held because he didn't recognise the result in June!) was a perfect opportunity to get rid of him. If a non-AKP government could have been formed, the December 2013 anti-corruption investigations could have been reopened - and just the material that became public knowledge at that time makes it clear there is plenty to convict him and his crooked family and cronies on - and that would have been the end. The situation in the run up to the poll appeared to be so evenly balanced that surely a few clever interventions here and there could have swung things in the opposition's way. Instead, it looks like he was able to rig the poll with impunity. OK, maybe they genuinely didn't want to get embroiled in the elections, or perhaps it isn't as easy as I think to influence the result.
I just hope the Russians have some substantive evidence to back these claims up. Everything so far is very circumstantial and are things that most observers have been aware of anyway.


Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.


And that s the problem the west all ways stick their nose in and as usual devide and rule but then it backfires. I can see a lot of shit thrown everywhere and I agree Erdogans days are numbered . I will be the first to say I hope he gets assasinated because he is nothing but trouble. He done goof for the country a while ago but that has been overshadowed by all the shit he continues to stir and problems . I have never liked him and now I totally hate him. i feel the same for Cameron. Another looser
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:11 am

Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Sadly, the USA appears to be standing behind Erdoğan, though:

The United States said it rejected the premise that the Turkish government was in league with the militants to smuggle oil. "We frankly see no evidence, none, to support such an accusation," State Department spokesman Mark Toner said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/ ... trsWeGq.97


Perception is not always the reality, Tim. America and NATO are boosting Erdogan's ego for him to get dirty and nasty with Putin, then they will stand back as Putins wipes the floor with Erdogan. Erdogan is already in deep shit with Putin by being called a terrorist and smuggling oil for the terrorist. That's the kind of label Erdogan will not be able to get rid off no matter what the Americans and NATO says on behalf of Erdogan. The damage has been already done and Erdogan is now a damaged goods.


I hope you're right. However, it seemed to me at the time of the recent elections in Turkey (the ones Erdoğan insisted be held because he didn't recognise the result in June!) was a perfect opportunity to get rid of him. If a non-AKP government could have been formed, the December 2013 anti-corruption investigations could have been reopened - and just the material that became public knowledge at that time makes it clear there is plenty to convict him and his crooked family and cronies on - and that would have been the end. The situation in the run up to the poll appeared to be so evenly balanced that surely a few clever interventions here and there could have swung things in the opposition's way. Instead, it looks like he was able to rig the poll with impunity. OK, maybe they genuinely didn't want to get embroiled in the elections, or perhaps it isn't as easy as I think to influence the result.
I just hope the Russians have some substantive evidence to back these claims up. Everything so far is very circumstantial and are things that most observers have been aware of anyway.


Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.


Just a small point about your post. Most of it is fine but Turkey's shooting down of the SU-34 certainly was not illegal.

The other thing is the West will NOT throw Turkey under any bus. They have there back from the moment they instructed them to shoot down the Russian Jet.

Further to this, the West will protect interests in Turkey such as bases and other facilities.
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Kikapu » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:32 am

Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.


Just a small point about your post. Most of it is fine but Turkey's shooting down of the SU-34 certainly was not illegal.

The other thing is the West will NOT throw Turkey under any bus. They have there back from the moment they instructed them to shoot down the Russian Jet.

Further to this, the West will protect interests in Turkey such as bases and other facilities.


1. The Russian Jet was shot over Syrian territory and not over Turkish territory, therefore, it was illegal, regardless if the Jet had been in the Turkish airspace for 17 seconds prior.
2. I was talking about the west throwing Erdogan under the Russian bus and not Turkey.
3. The west will protect it's interests in Turkey, but they don't need to protect Erdogan.
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:41 am

Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.


Just a small point about your post. Most of it is fine but Turkey's shooting down of the SU-34 certainly was not illegal.

The other thing is the West will NOT throw Turkey under any bus. They have there back from the moment they instructed them to shoot down the Russian Jet.

Further to this, the West will protect interests in Turkey such as bases and other facilities.


1. The Russian Jet was shot over Syrian territory and not over Turkish territory, therefore, it was illegal, regardless if the Jet had been in the Turkish airspace for 17 seconds prior.
2. I was talking about the west throwing Erdogan under the Russian bus and not Turkey.
3. The west will protect it's interests in Turkey, but they don't need to protect Erdogan.


It doesn't matter when or where it was shot down. When was the trigger pulled on the missile is a better question to ask?

These Jets are doing well over 600 knots or in excess of 10nms/min. What is clear is that it had violated the airspace and was not responding to the ADIZ.

And no, the West don't have to protect Erdogan. The West can remove Erdogan at any time. They have all the Turkish Generals on side so they can orchestrate a Coup if they wanted to.
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Kikapu » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:35 am

Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.


Just a small point about your post. Most of it is fine but Turkey's shooting down of the SU-34 certainly was not illegal.

The other thing is the West will NOT throw Turkey under any bus. They have there back from the moment they instructed them to shoot down the Russian Jet.

Further to this, the West will protect interests in Turkey such as bases and other facilities.


1. The Russian Jet was shot over Syrian territory and not over Turkish territory, therefore, it was illegal, regardless if the Jet had been in the Turkish airspace for 17 seconds prior.
2. I was talking about the west throwing Erdogan under the Russian bus and not Turkey.
3. The west will protect it's interests in Turkey, but they don't need to protect Erdogan.


It doesn't matter when or where it was shot down. When was the trigger pulled on the missile is a better question to ask?

These Jets are doing well over 600 knots or in excess of 10nms/min. What is clear is that it had violated the airspace and was not responding to the ADIZ.

And no, the West don't have to protect Erdogan. The West can remove Erdogan at any time. They have all the Turkish Generals on side so they can orchestrate a Coup if they wanted to.


From the fake radio transmissions that Turkey put out, supposedly made by the Turkish pilot, was just sending out warnings to thin air and not to any craft(s) in particular. They did not even give out the ordinates of the jets they were trying to contact. How could that be? If you are the Russian pilot and many Russian planes were in the sky in these areas and even if they heard this message and that they were in Syrian territory, why would they even respond? Wouldn't they give away their positions to some unconfirmed radio transmission? Why was it that the Turkish pilot who was sending radio messages and not the ground command? Surely the ground command had a better picture of what's going on in their airspace than the Turkish Jets, who were nowhere near the Russian Jets. No, I do believe the Russians when they claim that the Turkish Jets were waiting for the Russian planes to shoot one or two down in an ambush, hence Putin's statement that "they were stabbed in the back" by Turkey. Turkey will pay the price for this illegal act, specially when no one in Turkey were under any threat from this Russian Jet. Turkey can expect to have their jets shot down from here on by the Russians if any are a threat to the Russian Jets, regardless even if they are just inside their own Turkish territory along the Syrian border. Russians will too say that the Turkish jets crossed the Syrian border for 1 second, is when the trigger was pulled. Two can play that shitty game..
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Lordo » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:37 am

listen stupid this was not the first time the russians have done this. now they will stop.
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Re: Turkey shoots down a Russian jet

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:01 am

Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Tim, since the Turks downing the Russian Jet illegally over Syrian airspace, Turkey has been granting what ever the West and NATO wants, from using it's air bases to allowing more hardware on it's territory. Erdogan is basically being blackmailed to accept all these conditions in order to shield him from the Russian accusations of him helping ISIL. Erdogan is only safe for the time being, but the Americans will not be able to shelter him for too long and they will throw him under the Russian bus when the time is right. The Russians and the Americans got Erdogan by the ball, each holding one each. Erdogan's days are numbered and not as the President of Turkey, but as a free man.


Just a small point about your post. Most of it is fine but Turkey's shooting down of the SU-34 certainly was not illegal.

The other thing is the West will NOT throw Turkey under any bus. They have there back from the moment they instructed them to shoot down the Russian Jet.

Further to this, the West will protect interests in Turkey such as bases and other facilities.


1. The Russian Jet was shot over Syrian territory and not over Turkish territory, therefore, it was illegal, regardless if the Jet had been in the Turkish airspace for 17 seconds prior.
2. I was talking about the west throwing Erdogan under the Russian bus and not Turkey.
3. The west will protect it's interests in Turkey, but they don't need to protect Erdogan.


It doesn't matter when or where it was shot down. When was the trigger pulled on the missile is a better question to ask?

These Jets are doing well over 600 knots or in excess of 10nms/min. What is clear is that it had violated the airspace and was not responding to the ADIZ.

And no, the West don't have to protect Erdogan. The West can remove Erdogan at any time. They have all the Turkish Generals on side so they can orchestrate a Coup if they wanted to.


From the fake radio transmissions that Turkey put out, supposedly made by the Turkish pilot, was just sending out warnings to thin air and not to any craft(s) in particular. They did not even give out the ordinates of the jets they were trying to contact. How could that be? If you are the Russian pilot and many Russian planes were in the sky in these areas and even if they heard this message and that they were in Syrian territory, why would they even respond? Wouldn't they give away their positions to some unconfirmed radio transmission? Why was it that the Turkish pilot who was sending radio messages and not the ground command? Surely the ground command had a better picture of what's going on in their airspace than the Turkish Jets, who were nowhere near the Russian Jets. No, I do believe the Russians when they claim that the Turkish Jets were waiting for the Russian planes to shoot one or two down in an ambush, hence Putin's statement that "they were stabbed in the back" by Turkey. Turkey will pay the price for this illegal act, specially when no one in Turkey were under any threat from this Russian Jet. Turkey can expect to have their jets shot down from here on by the Russians if any are a threat to the Russian Jets, regardless even if they are just inside their own Turkish territory along the Syrian border. Russians will too say that the Turkish jets crossed the Syrian border for 1 second, is when the trigger was pulled. Two can play that shitty game..


That could mean that the Russian Aircraft was not on the ADIZ Frequency which the TAF would have NOTAMed. Usually its the the aircraft intercepting that will attempt contact with the infringing aircraft. And there could have been only 1 aircraft in the area at the time.

Not responding to the initial warnings is not the fault or problem of the TAF.

Once again, it is not an illegal act, but if Pootin thinks otherwise, he is able to take it up with ICAO at the UN, and Security Council. Fat good that will do though.
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