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Constructive

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Constructive

Postby Giorgos » Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:41 pm

Long time listener, first time caller.
Hi there.
First time poster. And I was wandering while reading the names of Grivas, Makarios, Denktash, 1963, 1974, invasion, coup ....
What is the point ?
Do you actually believe you will convince each other whose fault it was.
I personally would try to push conversation towards a more constructive dialogue.
Lets make a list of things we agree on.

My starting point:
Bi-zonal, bi-communal federation.
All those in favour?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:08 pm

Hello and welcome!

My starting point:
Bi-zonal, bi-communal federation.


Thats acceptable, but there is a problem: Most of our Turkish Cypriot friends here seem to understand "federation" in a different way. Most of them seem to demand something similar to the Annan plan, which was based on the Swiss confederation ( http://www.admin.ch/ ) but it was even looser making it actually just an association of two mainly independent states. And thats not acceptable.
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Postby erolz » Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:58 pm

Personaly I am not that bothered about bi-zonal. It may need to be so for a period of transition but for me I require no long term bi-zonality.

Bi-communal federation is ok with me if it means a federation of 'equal' communites. If it means a federation of the strong and the weak a federation of the politicaly superior and inferior - with the weak _defined_ as a political minority and inferior community in a so called 'partnership' - then I do not see that as a federation at all. I see it is a structural domination of one community over the other in a country they both share.

Piratis on this issue of the 'equality' of the two communites do see any problem with saying both GC and TC communites are equally to blame for the state of Cyprus today - or do you think the GC are 4 times more to blame because there are four times more of them?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:19 pm

Piratis on this issue of the 'equality' of the two communites do see any problem with saying both GC and TC communites are equally to blame for the state of Cyprus today - or do you think the GC are 4 times more to blame because there are four times more of them?


Committing crimes is not a right, it is something illegal. Who has the most blame is who brakes the law most. In the case of the events of 74 the blame goes mostly to GC traitors, the Greek Junta and Turkey. For the 30 years occupation the blame goes to Turkey and the TC supporters of occupation, because they are the only ones who brake the law now.

If it means a federation of the strong and the weak a federation of the politically superior and inferior - with the weak _defined_ as a political minority and inferior community in a so called 'partnership' - then I do not see that as a federation at all.


How about all Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, Armenians, Maronites and Latins, each have 20% power? I guess you can not argue against that. You don't want to dominate and treat as inferior the Armenians, Latins and Maronites, right? Oh, wait.. I am atheist. Why should I be dominated and be inferior of the religious groups? I think we should give to atheists equal power, otherwise they will be dominated by the others, right?

Because I typed this exact same things today, I will just quote myself here:

Turkish Cypriots are a numerically smaller community with specific differences(e.g. language, religion) that before the illegal invasion used to live all over the island.
Such communities exist in all countries, and I already gave you examples. What you are asking for is something that no community in any other country has.

In any case, if you falsely try to apply such concept for communities, shouldn't the same rights be given to Armenians, Maronites and Latins?

Somehow you use some very strange double standards. First you want to apply in Cyprus what is not applied to a community in any other country (double standard No1), and then at the same time you want to apply this only for your community and not the other numerically smaller groups in Cyprus (double standard No2).


There are a ton of countries that are made up from two or more distinct communities. The difficult part is to find an "ethnically pure" country and not the opposite. There are also a ton of countries that during different parts of their histories conflicts existed between some of their communities*. (black and whites in the US for example). The way to solve these conflicts is not by giving a minority 50% power. This is undemocratic. What is done in all other countries, is that they have special minority rights, anti-discrimination laws, human rights, and they can even take affirmative actions to make sure that people from all communities are treated equally. There are many ways to secure that Turkish Cypriots will not be dominated, and actually now within EU even if we wanted to do such thing it would be impossible. On top of the EU you will have the protections in the constitution that can change only if Turkish Cypriots agree.

Somehow you believe that you are sooo special. Something like the chosen people of your God, and that what applies in the rest of the world should not apply to you.

----
*If these communities own a separate part of the country, like it is the case with Kurds in Turkey, or Chechens in Russia, it could be argued that to end the conflict you should separate the communities (e.g. give independence to Kurdistan, Chechnya etc). This is not the case in Cyprus though, because Turkish Cypriots do not own a specific part of the country. All Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots. So Turkish Cypriots should stop thinking "our part of Cyprus" they should think "our whole Cyprus" and that in this whole Cyprus each one of them is an equal citizen, and that their community as a whole will be protected in the most official way, clearly in the constitution, that can not change unless TCs want to. Turkish Cypriots should realize that protecting their community is their right and it will be done, but this protection should not be used as an excuse to violate basic democratic principles and human rights of others.
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Conflict Resolution

Postby Giorgos » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:41 pm

Please no turning to the past.
Only forward.

Let's see now.
The issue at stake as I understand is is the represantation in the federation.
How equal will the partnership be.

My worry is not having 50 -50 decision making but how conflict resolution can be achieved. On any level.
Many options, some of which are:
Separate Majorities
Combined Majorities

What do you guys think.
I feel that the 50 - 50 can work with Separate BUT NOT Absolute Majorities.
Any thoughts?
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Postby Piratis » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:44 pm

Please no turning to the past.
Only forward.


Personally I am only looking forward. What we should have is something functional and fair, otherwise it will brake down and more problems are ahead of us.

I feel that the 50 - 50 can work with Separate BUT NOT Absolute Majorities.


Can you explain what you mean "separate but not absolute"?

By the way, the Ottoman empire in Cyprus worked also. Many things can work, but the point is to have something democratic with respect to human rights. Giving 2.7 votes to a part of the population because they speak one language and they have one religion, and 0.6 votes to another part because they speak a different language is definitely not democratic, and it is clearly a racist discrimination.
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Postby erolz » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:10 am

Piratis wrote: Committing crimes is....


Out of respect for Giorgos I will reply /continue this discussion in another thread and not 'dilute' this one that Giorgos has started with tangential discussion.

It can be found here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=4074#4074
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:09 pm

I strongly agree that Bi zonal Bi communal federation will be an ideal settlement for the issue ! I think federal systems are more democratic since it allows all voices to be heard and therefore diversity of ideas is encouraged at all levels! It is therefore more suitable nowadays when the diversity of opinions is a plus in any healthy democracy.It also address much of the concerns of both sides in a democratic environemnt where the cypriot culture will be strongly encouraged without any foreign influence.

There are many who consider a federal system as a weakness but I strongly disagree with them, If that was the case then no country worldwide would have adopted such a framework in the first place.
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Postby brother » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:02 pm

Intresting opinion and a worthy debate but a truely free cyprus can only happen as one person=one vote any other way will fail if not today tomorrow will definately see its fall.
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Postby erolz » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:21 pm

brother wrote:Intresting opinion and a worthy debate but a truely free cyprus can only happen as one person=one vote any other way will fail if not today tomorrow will definately see its fall.


Personaly I do not see a way forward that tries to impose one person one vote before there is a majority of Cypriots that consider themeslves of 'one cypriot identity'. This has to be built over time starting with a concept of one communnity one vote in the hope of leading over time to there only being one community in Cyprus - at which point one person one vote becomes viable. One person one vote before there is a true common Cypriot idendity is just GC political control over TC as I see it.
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