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Greek islanders to be nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

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Re: Greek islanders to be nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Postby erolz66 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:35 pm

Paphitis wrote: Nonsense, even FRONTEX has abandoned Greece, because they get fired upon by the Turkish Coastguard.


I am sorry but a couple of incidents in 2009 where Turkey warned FRONTEX aircraft that they were violating Turkish airspace and where (in one at least) Frontex officials stated that they simply ignored the Turkish warnings as they did not recognise their being in Turkish airspace and continued their duties, does not imo support the frankly ludicrous claim that "FRONTEX has abandoned Greece, because they get fired upon by the Turkish Coastguard"

Paphitis wrote:The Greeks won't accept this blood money.


People smuggling the world over is operated by criminal gangs. The idea that no Greeks would ever be involved in people smuggling is imo frankly ridiculous. This is just one report, from dec 2013, that no doubt I will be accused I am posting merely because I am anti Greece, but am actually doing so as a result of your claim

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/12 ... orestiada/

Paphitis wrote:Sure but how you can expect Greece and accuse Greece of not delivering is beyond me.


I am not the one 'accusing' Greece. It is the EU commission that has recently found them to be seriously failing their schengen obligations in an schengen evaluation report. It was the ECHR that found their asylum procedures to be so inadequate in 2011 that it deemed that other EU members who were to return asylum seekers to Greece under the terms of the Dublin agreements would actually be violating those asylum seekers human rights by doing so, leading to s suspension of such transfers that is still in forced today some 4 plus years later.

Paphitis wrote:But, and I believe this 100%, Greece has shown an element of compassion and tolerance towards these Syrian Refugees which I am afraid to say has gone beyond much richer countries of Schengen.


You of course are free to believe what you like. Just as I am. My belief is that there is not actually credible evidence to support the claim above. Maybe that is because I am 'anti Greek' but then again maybe your belief is because you are 'pro Greek'.

Paphitis wrote:That is why, there are nearly a million signatures requesting Greece's nomination for the Nobel Peace prize. And for me they are worthy Nobel Peace Prize contenders and probably deserve to get it.


I remain unsure as to what the intention of the campaign is. Is it to recognise Greece or is it to recognise 'ordinary people' who happen to be Greek. I would suspect that some of those that have signed the online petition have done so because they think it is the later, just as you say it is the former.
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Re: Greek islanders to be nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Postby Paphitis » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:01 pm

Paphitis wrote: Nonsense, even FRONTEX has abandoned Greece, because they get fired upon by the Turkish Coastguard.


erolz66 wrote:I am sorry but a couple of incidents in 2009 where Turkey warned FRONTEX aircraft that they were violating Turkish airspace and where (in one at least) Frontex officials stated that they simply ignored the Turkish warnings as they did not recognise their being in Turkish airspace and continued their duties, does not imo support the frankly ludicrous claim that "FRONTEX has abandoned Greece, because they get fired upon by the Turkish Coastguard"


So why would they ignore the Turkish warnings? Because the FRONTEX aircraft was either in Greek Airspace or International Airspace, and they probably abandoned Greece because they had safety concerns because of Turkey's unreasonable pestering and threats.

Paphitis wrote:The Greeks won't accept this blood money.


erolz66 wrote:People smuggling the world over is operated by criminal gangs. The idea that no Greeks would ever be involved in people smuggling is imo frankly ridiculous. This is just one report, from dec 2013, that no doubt I will be accused I am posting merely because I am anti Greece, but am actually doing so as a result of your claim


No not really. Not just gangs. In Indonesia, you have rather small time fishermen in the the act taking advantage of refugees in unsafe little boats. Hundreds of them drown.

The same thing is occurring in Turkey.

But sure, there are probably gangs as well.

Paphitis wrote:Sure but how you can expect Greece and accuse Greece of not delivering is beyond me.


erolz66 wrote:I am not the one 'accusing' Greece. It is the EU commission that has recently found them to be seriously failing their schengen obligations in an schengen evaluation report. It was the ECHR that found their asylum procedures to be so inadequate in 2011 that it deemed that other EU members who were to return asylum seekers to Greece under the terms of the Dublin agreements would actually be violating those asylum seekers human rights by doing so, leading to s suspension of such transfers that is still in forced today some 4 plus years later.


As I told you. Schengen can get stuffed.

The day these Schengen bullies actually do something to help out and also recognise the fact that they themselves are a bunch of racist thugs, is the day I will take them more seriously.

Paphitis wrote:But, and I believe this 100%, Greece has shown an element of compassion and tolerance towards these Syrian Refugees which I am afraid to say has gone beyond much richer countries of Schengen.


erolz66 wrote:You of course are free to believe what you like. Just as I am. My belief is that there is not actually credible evidence to support the claim above. Maybe that is because I am 'anti Greek' but then again maybe your belief is because you are 'pro Greek'.


Yes I am free to believe what I like, and I feel genuinely very proud of Greece for conducting itself in the manner we see on all the news bulletins. Very proud of them because they have done remarkable things, and I don't see the same remarkable things from Cameron or the German people. I omit Merkel only because she put her hand up to take a few hundred thousand of them (which is rather significant).

Paphitis wrote:That is why, there are nearly a million signatures requesting Greece's nomination for the Nobel Peace prize. And for me they are worthy Nobel Peace Prize contenders and probably deserve to get it.


erolz66 wrote:I remain unsure as to what the intention of the campaign is. Is it to recognise Greece or is it to recognise 'ordinary people' who happen to be Greek. I would suspect that some of those that have signed the online petition have done so because they think it is the later, just as you say it is the former.


It's both. The people need to be recognised for the extra-ordinary compassion and sacrifice. Although I am certain they will not require it themselves being so humble.

Greece should also be recognised for also contributing well beyond its means. Those Frigates it deployed to the area cost about a million per day to operate, and those ships, along with the Coast Guard have saved the lives of hundreds, probably thousands.

The surveillance aircraft from the HAF also cost a lot of money. Planes are little money pits as are ships.
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Re: Greek islanders to be nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:24 pm

One of the problems that's come to light about Schengen is the need to treat the external borders differently to the internal borders. I think the amendment that's due in shortly is taking into account the necessity to factor in migrant flows at the external borders and that normal, routine 'obligations' shouldn't necessarily have to be adhered to here under all circumstances. This wouldn't be true for internal borders of course. It's easier to adjust the flow of migrants at internal borders - they are pretty much safe and dry then. On top of normal border controls (and some countries don't even have any of these), Greece is having to do air and sea search and rescues.

Again, Greece has had to be scapegoated when some EU pen-pusher didn't think ahead to differing scenarios.

I can't understand anyone cold-heartedly criticizing Greece over any of its actions in the last few years of having to cope with these migrants. You'd have to be a real Greek-hater to go down that road.
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Re: Greek islanders to be nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Postby erolz66 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:35 pm

Paphitis wrote:So why would they ignore the Turkish warnings? Because the FRONTEX aircraft was either in Greek Airspace or International Airspace,


Indeed this is exactly the case in this incident from 2009. They ignored the warning, carried on about their business and as a result no one was fired at.

Paphitis wrote:and they probably abandoned Greece because they had safety concerns because of Turkey's unreasonable pestering and threats.


This just did not happen to the best of my knowledge and understanding. Frontex did not, as a result of the incident above in 2009, abandon its patrols in or around Greece. Not then in that specific patrol, not after it as a result of the incident and not now. They just carried on as usual. In response to the recent crisis EU funding for frontex has trippled btw.

Paphitis wrote:No not really. Not just gangs.


OK, not just gangs. This was not however the core of the point I was trying to make. The core of the point I was trying to make was in response to the claim that

Paphitis wrote:The Greeks won't accept this blood money.


And as evidence as to why I was of the view that such a claim was not supportable I offered

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/12 ... orestiada/

Paphitis wrote:As I told you. Schengen can get stuffed.


I know of no reports that would suggest that Greece wants to leave Schengen ?

Paphitis wrote: and I feel genuinely very proud of Greece for conducting itself in the manner we see on all the news bulletins. Very proud of them because they have done remarkable things, and I don't see the same remarkable things from Cameron or the German people. I omit Merkel only because she put her hand up to take a few hundred thousand of them (which is rather significant).


Britain is a good example. I think Britain's response to the crisis has been woeful, mean spirited and lacking in compassion. I say this as a British citizen. I say it despite the reports of individual displays of remarkable kindness and compassion shown to migrants by some Brits, in the UK and elsewhere. I say it despite 100's of thousands of ordinary Brits taking to the street and demonstrating about the woeful and inadequate response of the British government to the crisis.

It is not just Merkel that has "take[n] a few hundred thousand of them". Sweden, Hungary, Austria, Norway and Finland have all 'taken' a greater number of 'them' than Germany as a proportion of their respective population sizes. It was not just Germany that unilaterally decided to suspended implementing return of refugees to place of first entry under the Dublin agreements in response to the crisis. The Czech republic did so too,

Paphitis wrote:The people need to be recognised for the extra-ordinary compassion and sacrifice.


I totally agree that these people should be recognised for the extra-ordinary compassion and sacrifice of these acts. They are indeed and example 'to us all', as individuals and as states. You should as a Greek, rightly be proud that so many such acts have been from Greeks.

Where I differ from you is that I do not think that Greece's attitude and response to the migrant crisis in general is defined solely by such individual acts alone. That such acts effectively negate and make inconsequential, in regards to comparison with other nations, a Greece that also has Golden Dawn, a Greece that was found in 2011 by the ECHR to be so deficient in terms of its practices and policies re asylum that any country that returned an asylum seeker to Greece would be violating that persons human rights.

Over all my personal opinion that your belief that Greece is clearly 'better' than all other EU / Schengen countries in regards to migrants in general and the current crisis in particular, is ,in this particular case, driven more by you being Greek yourself than it is by dispassionate evaluation of the evidence. It is also my opinion you (imo) behaving in such a manner in this case is understandable and not particularly remarkable and something we all can and do do on occasions. In my opinion you do not, like some here on this forum, systematically and relentless behave this way in regard to every and all mention of Greece. In my opinion you have in the past shown you are able as a Greek to criticise and be critical off Greece and of others doing so as well when you believe it is justified. Your behaviour here imo is not overwhelming characterised and defined over years and years and years of posting as being unable to ever accept any criticisms of Greece or failing by Greece.
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Re: Greek islanders to be nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Postby erolz66 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:49 am

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