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NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:39 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
If NATO can intercept these people before they get to Greece, they can and should be returned to Turkey. It's only once they land in Greece that they might become Greece's long-term problem. The crux zone.



The Secretary General stressed that this mission is “not about stopping or pushing back refugee boats,” but about contributing “critical information and surveillance to help counter human trafficking and criminal networks.”
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_127981.htm?selectedLocale=en
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:13 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
If NATO can intercept these people before they get to Greece, they can and should be returned to Turkey. It's only once they land in Greece that they might become Greece's long-term problem. The crux zone.



The Secretary General stressed that this mission is “not about stopping or pushing back refugee boats,” but about contributing “critical information and surveillance to help counter human trafficking and criminal networks.”
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_127981.htm?selectedLocale=en


That is not what they said at the brief.

When refugee boats are intercepted, they will be forced to return back to Turkey. That is the whole point.

It's exactly what occurs in Australia. Boats are intercepted and forced back. They are not allowed to enter Australia. It is the most effective border security measure. If they succeed in stopping the boats, the people smuggling industry is shut down. It also saves lives.

They are also placing a heavy onus on Turkey to prevent, distrupt any human trafficking from Turkey to Greece. The whole purpose is to disrupt the people smuggling and to secure EU borders. If the refugees do actially make it to Greece, then that changes things but the idea is to prevent this from happening or reducing the influx at least.

Basically, Germany's borders end in the Aegean. The German's are starting to pull their weight rather than rely on Greece all the time and then shit can them because they are inundated and can't cope.

To put things in perspective, do you think the USA can cope with 30 million illegal immigrants in 12 months? Can the UK cope with 8 million? No I don't think so!
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:36 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
If NATO can intercept these people before they get to Greece, they can and should be returned to Turkey. It's only once they land in Greece that they might become Greece's long-term problem. The crux zone.



The Secretary General stressed that this mission is “not about stopping or pushing back refugee boats,” but about contributing “critical information and surveillance to help counter human trafficking and criminal networks.”
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_127981.htm?selectedLocale=en


Yes, Paphitis is correct. The logistics might not allow the NATO warships to "push back boats" (that makes sense). But, once spotted, there's supposed to be rapid surveillance information exchanges with whichever coastguard or Frontex patrol boats are around so that they can force their return to Turkey. Greece is sending out over 50 ships and these can return them to Turkish waters where, hopefully since the Turks have *agreed* their part with NATO they will then guide them back to Turkey. (This is the weakest link - Turkish coastguards - as they have been used to helping these refugees push off towards Greece - now they HAVE to do the opposite!)
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:40 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Meanwhile the priority should be to help Greece and patrol the EU external borders which are NOT the individual responsibility of Greece!


I think you will find that under REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006 establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code) http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32006R0562 The National Governments of Members States are responsible for the control of their borders, albeit under common rules.


Yup, that's true for internal borders. Different considerations for common external EU border for which all the states have to contribute surveillance and so all are equally responsible (hence Frontex). You may have been led astray here by erolz's zeal for bashing Greece.
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby B25 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:48 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Meanwhile the priority should be to help Greece and patrol the EU external borders which are NOT the individual responsibility of Greece!


I think you will find that under REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006 establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code) http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32006R0562 The National Governments of Members States are responsible for the control of their borders, albeit under common rules.


Perhaps so, but when that was drafted it intended for normal circumstances.

What Greece is suffering is unprecedented and the problem is caused and exasperated by none other than your loveable Turkey.

perhaps you should take Erolz cock from your mouth and apply a little logic instead of blatantly setting out to discredit both Greece and GiG.

As Paphit has said, could the UK and US take 10% of their population in an instant with no problem, I don't F think so.
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:54 pm

This is why internal borders and external borders have different layers of responsibility:

Frontex helps border authorities from different EU countries work together. Frontex’s full title is the European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders of the Member States of the European Union. The agency was set up in 2004 to reinforce and streamline cooperation between national border authorities. In pursuit of this goal, Frontex has several operational areas which are defined in the founding Frontex Regulation and a subsequent amendment. These areas of activity are:

Joint Operations — Frontex plans, coordinates, implements and evaluates joint operations conducted using Member States’ staff and equipment at the external borders (sea, land and air).


As it says, Frontex is the external border agency. It's not just Greece at fault when things go wrong at the external border as some would like to believe.

I believe Greece has the longest external border and is unfortunately the closest to Turkey. Double whammy.
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby erolz66 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:54 pm

Paphitis wrote:When refugee boats are intercepted, they will be forced to return back to Turkey. That is the whole point.


This can only be done with Turkey's agreement. To do it without Turkey's agreement. To force someone who has a valid status of refugee and right to asylum to a country that has said it will not accept them or process them as asylum seekers would be illegal. Just as it has been illegal for EU member states to force those with refugee status to return to Greece if that is where the first entered the EU, as the Dublin agremts say they can, since 2011. The reason why this is illegal is because Greece's asylum procedures and process were judged by the ECHR and ECJ to be insufficient.

It's exactly what occurs in Australia. Boats are intercepted and forced back. They are not allowed to enter Australia. It is the most effective border security measure. If they succeed in stopping the boats, the people smuggling industry is shut down. It also saves lives.

Paphitis wrote:To put things in perspective, do you think the USA can cope with 30 million illegal immigrants in 12 months? Can the UK cope with 8 million? No I don't think so!


There is the strain of trying to cope with vast numbers of migrants passing through a country on the way to somewhere else. Then there is the strain of dealing with granting asylum to remain in a country to vast numbers. Greece is strained by the former. Turkey is being strained by both. Even if all irregular migration between Turkey and Greece is stopped and the only way a migrant can move from Turkey to the EU is via agreed process with the receiving EU country, this will not end the flow of irregular migrants arriving at EU external borders. It will just move it to different boarders.
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby erolz66 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:39 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Yup, that's true for internal borders. Different considerations for common external EU border for which all the states have to contribute surveillance and so all are equally responsible (hence Frontex). You may have been led astray here by erolz's zeal for bashing Greece.


You are just incorrect on this point, but that will not stop you from posting pages and pages and pages of posts screaming and shouting that you are right, just as you did here. That there is a pan European federal body who's role is assist EU members meet THEIR obligations with regard to external EU boards and to help co - ordinate across national boarder authorities, that does not mean all EU members states are equally responsible for the day to day management of all external boarders. Greece is not 'equally' responsible for the day to day management of the EU external boarders that are in Poland as Poland is for those boarders. Because of what Schengen is, it does mean that a Schengen external boarder that is a part of one members boarders is in effect a common external boarder for all members. This does mean all have a 'stake' in the managing of those boarders and a responsibility to ensure they are managed correctly. However the day to day implementation of managing those boarders falls to (and is the responsibility of) the competent national agencies within a given member state for those external boarders that are part of that state. That is why the recent EU Commission schengen evaluation report on Greece was critical of Greece's failures and concluded that Greece was failing to meet its obligations and was not critical of FRONTEX and FRONTEX's failure to meet it's obligations with regard to the Aegean. The evaluation is critical of the body that has primary day to day responsibility and in that case it was and is Greece and its national agencies charged with meeting these obligations.

So let the pages and pages and pages of screaming and shouting, out of context quoting, distortion through omission with intent, the wailing, the insults and all the other inevitable behaviours begin once again, just as they did here , and have dome so many times before and will so many times hence. None of that will alter actual reality one iota.
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:02 pm

Sorry but you are wrong.

Refugees can only legally ask for asylum at the first country of their arrival that is considered safe if they have been displaced due to war.

Greece is under no obligation to allow the arrival of registered refugees. If they manage to arrive in Greece then they become Greece's problem as Greece is obligated to take their asylum request and prevent their onwards departure to another EU country.

There are obligations on Turkey to prevent the departure of refugees to Greece. So yes, intercepted boats can be refused entry into Greece and forced to return to Turkey and Turkey is obligated to take them back and process their refugee status and even provide protection visas.

If Turkey can't cope, then they can with the bilateral agreements of other countries such as Germany, allow the onwards movement to those countries.

And that is also dependent on those countries sending Foreign Affairs staff and Consular Officials to Turkey in order to screen the refugees they want to take. It's not up to Turkey. For instance, Australia gives priority to victimized minority groups such as the Yazidis and Assyrians (maybe Kurds). They in effect are discriminating over the religious creed and race of the refugees. There are other requirements too.

Countries will process from Turkey, or Jordan. They just don't want anyone rocking up on their doorstep.
Last edited by Paphitis on Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NATO to stop shameless threats by Turkey.

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:13 pm

..yet Turkey and Greece, have not necessarily agreed to working together; they have agreed to coordinate their work with the other members involved so that neither will cross into eithers' territory.

...easy enough to organise i suppose, unless the boundary itself comes under dispute. (And technically, does the person need to be standing on Greek soil to claim asylum, as is the case in the USA?)
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