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Greece under EU orders re borders

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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:11 pm

Sotos wrote:Those who criticize the liberal Greek government probably would prefer a party like Chrysi Avgi to be in power. The borders of Greece would be unbreakable with Chrisi Avgi... only the bodies of dead immigrants would be allowed to touch the Greek shores... and dead people can't walk anywhere. I am sure EU and some people in here would be perfectly satisfied with Greece's performance then ;)


Are you saying it is your opinion that those who have the responsibility of evaluating if Greece was/is or was/is not meeting its legal obligations with regard to the application of Schengen accquis, should not criticise Greece even when they find serious deficiencies in Greece's application of that accquis, because they current Greek government is a 'liberal' one ? Is that really your suggestion / argument ?
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:02 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:That doesn't criticize Greece!


On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/

-------------

Primitive Defense Mechanisms

1. Denial

Denial is the refusal to accept reality or fact, acting as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist. It is considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development. Many people use denial in their everyday lives to avoid dealing with painful feelings or areas of their life they don’t wish to admit. For instance, a person who is a functioning alcoholic will often simply deny they have a drinking problem, pointing to how well they function in their job and relationships.


http://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-d ... echanisms/
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:07 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: The remedial action recommended, has to be APPROVED by Greece and that is why it is proposed to Greece!


the Commission presents to the Council for adoption recommendations for remedial action.

Where, after three months from the adoption of the Council recommendation, serious deficiencies persist and the measures taken have not proved sufficient, the Commission may trigger the application of the procedure provided for in article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:22 pm

erolz66 wrote:Denial is the refusal to accept reality or fact, acting as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist. It is considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development. Many people use denial in their everyday lives to avoid dealing with painful feelings or areas of their life they don’t wish to admit. For instance, a person who is a functioning alcoholic will often simply deny they have a drinking problem, pointing to how well they function in their job and relationships.


idiot: star see definition of idiot

noun : very stupid person, fool
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:23 pm

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: The remedial action recommended, has to be APPROVED by Greece and that is why it is proposed to Greece!


the Commission presents to the Council for adoption recommendations for remedial action.

Where, after three months from the adoption of the Council recommendation, serious deficiencies persist and the measures taken have not proved sufficient, the Commission may trigger the application of the procedure provided for in article 26 of the Schengen Borders Code.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/


You really are a simpleton. Unable to work out the steps from discussion to recommendations to accepting to proposing .... etc :roll:
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:13 pm

MSF's decision to quit the Moria refugee camp in Greece over the new EU plan speaks to just how dangerous that plan is for refugees. And that danger comes in two forms.

The first is that Turkey simply isn't a safe country for refugees. Turkish law forbids Iraqis and Afghans from obtaining refugee status, which means if citizens of those countries are sent to Turkey — as the terms of this deal would require — they could be deported to Iraq or Afghanistan, where they would face persecution.


The second problem with the new EU policy is that because it only affects refugees who arrive in Greece, and because it's so dangerous for refugees to remain in Turkey, the likely effect is to force refugees to take other routes to safety — almost certainly pushing many into routes they would have otherwise avoided because they are too dangerous.

Indeed, the BBC reports that after the announcement of the Greece-Turkey agreement, there has already been a spike in migrant traffic along the very dangerous sea route across the strait of Sicily. The Italian coast guard announced Saturday that it had rescued 900 people trying to make the crossing.

So perhaps you can see why MSF would decide to leave the Moria refugee camp over this policy. The camp, after all, is supposed to be a place where refugees can find protection. But this new policy turns it into a place where they will encounter new dangers of persecution and new risks to their safety. It is small wonder that MSF feels that any involvement in such a system is morally untenable. And although MSF avoids political activism, it's hard not to read this decision as a strong protest against the new EU policy and the effect it will have on vulnerable refugees.


And the fact that MSF will remain in so many war zones but not at Moria is also perhaps a statement, whether it is meant to be or not, about how perverse European refugee policy has become; how much it is not only failing to solve the problem of one of the world's greatest humanitarian crises but is increasingly part of the problem itself.


http://www.vox.com/2016/3/23/11291612/e ... e-inhumane

...i'll throw this in here as food for thought.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:16 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: You really are a simpleton. Unable to work out the steps from discussion to recommendations to accepting to proposing .... etc :roll:


You are the one who can take this from the EU Council itself

On 12 February 2016, the Council adopted a recommendation on addressing serious deficiencies identified during an evaluation of Greece's application of the Schengen acquis in the area of external border management. The recommendation proposes to Greece remedial action to address these deficiencies.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... of-greece/

and turn that into

GreekIslandGirl wrote:That doesn't criticize Greece!


Steps are simple and clearly defined. Evaluators were sent to GREECE. They evaluated how well GREECE was applying Schengen acquis. They determined that GREECE was serious deficient. The EU commission adopted this evaluation about GREECE. It drew up recommendations on what GREECE must do to rectify these deficiencies. EU Council adopted these recommendations, starting the three month timer.

It is all plain and simple and explained in detail by countless EU press releases and documents from both the commission and the council. You are simply in denial. You are clearly showing a "refusal to accept reality or fact, acting as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist."
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:52 pm

erolz66 wrote: Evaluators were sent to GREECE.


Yes, that's because THAT is where the EU JOINT external border, which has been trashed by Turkey, happens to be!

They didn't criticize GREECE! What? Was it too hot? Too many beaches? Not liberal enough? :roll:

No!

They identified the shortfalls in the JOINT border responsibility and THAT is why we have been seeing so much talk about the need for EFFORT from those non-compliant countries who have not contributed to the defense of the JOINT EU External border that is signposted by Greece.

Sadly, you and STUD are stuck in some imaginary world where the country that has done the MOST to help migrants is somehow 'criticized'. Pathetic!
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:28 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: Yes, that's because THAT is where the EU JOINT external border, which has been trashed by Turkey, happens to be!

They didn't criticize GREECE! What? Was it too hot? Too many beaches? Not liberal enough? :roll:

They identified the shortfalls in the JOINT border responsibility and THAT is why we have been seeing so much talk about the need for EFFORT from those non-compliant countries who have not contributed to the defense of the JOINT EU External border that is signposted by Greece.


The following is THE Implementing decision of Council of the European Union 12 February 2016

Council Implementing Decision 12 February 2016 wrote: Subject: Council Implementing Decision setting out a Recommendation on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation of the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external borders by Greece

It is of utmost importance that Greece addresses the issues identified in the report adopted by the Commission as a matter of priority and urgency.

The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.

The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents

HEREBY RECOMMENDS: Greece should (there follows 50 specific recommendations that Greece needs to implement within three months)


GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sadly, you and STUD are stuck in some imaginary world where the country that has done the MOST to help migrants is somehow 'criticized'. Pathetic!


I am stuck in the real world. The one where, when the EU commission and Council say Greece was seriously deficient, it means they think Greece was seriously deficient. You are the one stuck in your own self made fantasy world where, when the EU commission and Council say Greece was seriously deficient, that actually means the whole EU was seriously deficient. There is only one way to describe your position and that is one of blatant unremitting denial - considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:05 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote: Evaluators were sent to GREECE.


Yes, that's because THAT is where the EU JOINT external border, which has been trashed by Turkey, happens to be!

They didn't criticize GREECE! What? Was it too hot? Too many beaches? Not liberal enough? :roll


Bollocks,, pure bollocks on the part of GIG, the inveterate liar...
The words used were serious deficienciencies and these were the fault of the Greek Government who is responsible for that border.

No!

They identified the shortfalls in the JOINT border responsibility and THAT is why we have been seeing so much talk about the need for EFFORT from those non-compliant countries who have not contributed to the defense of the JOINT EU External border that is signposted by Greece.

another example of your blatent lying and distortion: where is there any identified failing of any country apart from Greece in the provision of monitoring of irregular immigrants entering Greece?

Sadly, you and STUD are stuck in some imaginary world where the country that has done the MOST to help migrants is somehow 'criticized'. Pathetic!


Yes you are pathetic, paranoid, deluded, in denial. Greece and no one else is currently responsible for monitoring irregular migrants crossing the Greek external border. They can ask for help, as they did on 3rd December, following the inspections that took place between 10th and 13th November which revealed that there were serious deficiencies on the part of Greece, ie Greece, no one else, had fucked up big time.

Frontex as currently constituted performs a coordinating role in setting standards and providing training... Standards which Greece and no one else failed to meet in monitoring irregular migrants entering Greece.. Currently can only assist on the ground on the invitation of the national government.. And that assistance is what is now being arranged.

As the road map sets out, Frontex was obliged to seek support from other member states latest by 22nd March. Two days ago. The other states have until 1st April to respond. One week from now. No question therefore can arise until 1st April of failure to assist by any nation.

I repeat i will crticise any state that fails to respond as requested. Greece needs all the help it can get. It has faiked to manage on its own, for a number if reasons, rnot least the magnitude of the problem and what i cannot understand, perhaps you canexplain, is why it took till 3rd December for Greece to ask for help, after the inspections of November 10-13', which help they could and should have asked for long before.


Anyway since you have a different view Can you explain the mechanism by which eg Belgium or any other EU country or their border guards would be involved in the control of the Greek external border, save by invitation through a request for help by Frontex, which assistance was not requested until 3rd December, three weeks after The inspections?

Hint, unless and until teams are brought in by Frontex at the request of Greece, none.

Can you point to any document which has pointed to serious deficifiencies in the monitoring of the Greek external bordet, on the part of anyone but Greece?

I Do not think you can as there was no involvement on the part of anyone but Greece in monitoring irregular migrants crossing into Greece from Turkey, nor mechanism for them to be involved, and will not be until after 1st April at the soonest.
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