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Greece under EU orders re borders

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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Sotos » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:08 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:Those who criticize the liberal Greek government probably would prefer a party like Chrysi Avgi to be in power. The borders of Greece would be unbreakable with Chrisi Avgi... only the bodies of dead immigrants would be allowed to touch the Greek shores... and dead people can't walk anywhere. I am sure EU and some people in here would be perfectly satisfied with Greece's performance then ;)


Are you saying it is your opinion that those who have the responsibility of evaluating if Greece was/is or was/is not meeting its legal obligations with regard to the application of Schengen accquis, should not criticise Greece even when they find serious deficiencies in Greece's application of that accquis, because they current Greek government is a 'liberal' one ? Is that really your suggestion / argument ?


They should not criticize Greece because this is an extra-ordinary situation. There is an easy solution for Greece: Not accept any immigrants. Send her coastguard and battleships and prevent anybody from entering the country illegally. This is what Crysi Avgi would do. Is this what you want?
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:58 pm

Sotos wrote:They should not criticize Greece because this is an extra-ordinary situation. There is an easy solution for Greece: Not accept any immigrants. Send her coastguard and battleships and prevent anybody from entering the country illegally. This is what Crysi Avgi would do. Is this what you want?


Ignoring that your 'easy solution' is in fact not an easy one at all, legally or in any practical way, I reject the very notion that there are only two binary options of let Greece carry on as it was in 2015 without any criticism or attempt to get it to improve the situation, or accept that Crysi Avgi will get voted in and not allow a single irregular migrant to reach Greece.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:03 am

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: Yes, that's because THAT is where the EU JOINT external border, which has been trashed by Turkey, happens to be!

They didn't criticize GREECE! What? Was it too hot? Too many beaches? Not liberal enough? :roll:

They identified the shortfalls in the JOINT border responsibility and THAT is why we have been seeing so much talk about the need for EFFORT from those non-compliant countries who have not contributed to the defense of the JOINT EU External border that is signposted by Greece.


The following is THE Implementing decision of Council of the European Union 12 February 2016

Council Implementing Decision 12 February 2016 wrote: Subject: Council Implementing Decision setting out a Recommendation on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation of the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external borders by Greece.

It is of utmost importance that Greece addresses the issues identified in the report adopted by the Commission as a matter of priority and urgency.

The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.

The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents

HEREBY RECOMMENDS: Greece should (there follows 50 specific recommendations that Greece needs to implement within three months)


GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sadly, you and STUD are stuck in some imaginary world where the country that has done the MOST to help migrants is somehow 'criticized'. Pathetic!


I am stuck in the real world. The one where, when the EU commission and Council say ACCORDING TO EROLZ66 Greece was seriously deficient, it means they think Greece was seriously deficient. You are the one stuck in your own self made fantasy world where, when the EU commission and Council say Greece was seriously deficient, that actually means the whole EU was seriously deficient. There is only one way to describe your position and that is one of blatant unremitting denial - considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development.


Again, you project your feelings about Greece on comments to do with border management which is a joint venture and not the lone responsibility of Greece. The recommendations are proposed to Greece. The recommendations are about MORE FRONTEX help!

Nowhere does the EU Commission and Council say (to quote you) "Greece was seriously deficient". You are a scheming twister who spins something about joint management of the borders as a deficiency by Greece. LIES!

FIND THE QUOTE!
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Sotos » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:34 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:They should not criticize Greece because this is an extra-ordinary situation. There is an easy solution for Greece: Not accept any immigrants. Send her coastguard and battleships and prevent anybody from entering the country illegally. This is what Crysi Avgi would do. Is this what you want?


Ignoring that your 'easy solution' is in fact not an easy one at all, legally or in any practical way, I reject the very notion that there are only two binary options of let Greece carry on as it was in 2015 without any criticism or attempt to get it to improve the situation, or accept that Crysi Avgi will get voted in and not allow a single irregular migrant to reach Greece.


OK... not binary is like this: Greece can say "we can properly process X amount of people each month", when that quota is filled no one else is allowed for that month. Is that OK with you? It is not binary anymore and Greece is accepting as many as possible while also being able to process them properly.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:46 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote: Again, you project your feelings about Greece


Again I just quote verbatim what the EU Commission and the EU Council have said about Greece in this regard.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:on comments to do with border management which is a joint venture and not the lone responsibility of Greece.


Not true.

GreekIslandGirl wrote: The recommendations are about MORE FRONTEX help!


Not true. There are 50 recommendations that GREECE should implement according to the EU Council Implementing decision of 12 February 2016. Of that 50 Frontex is mentioned once in one single recommendation of the entire 50. Recommendation 19 which says Greece should

19. increase training at the local level especially on forged and falsified documents, risk analysis and updated legislation; this could also be done by the exchange of officers between BCP's as well
as by making better use of the available Frontex tools with regard to forged and falsified documents;


None of the other 49 recommendations mention frontex at all.

GreekIslandGirl wrote: Nowhere does the EU Commission and Council say (to quote you) "Greece was seriously deficient". You are a scheming twister who spins something about joint management of the borders as a deficiency by Greece. LIES!


The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece,

The serious deficiencies referred to represent, as far as the carrying out of external border controls is concerned, a situation where the obligations referred to in Article 16(1) and (4) of Regulation (EU) No 1053/2013 have not been met.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:10 am

Sotos wrote: OK... not binary is like this: Greece can say "we can properly process X amount of people each month", when that quota is filled no one else is allowed for that month. Is that OK with you? It is not binary anymore and Greece is accepting as many as possible while also being able to process them properly.


Asking if it is 'ok with me' feels a little childish to be honest. The EU (the commission and the council) is trying to prevent the total break down of Schengen in the face of the unprecedented numbers of migrants. It is trying to find EU wide solutions. The evaluation report on Greece, the conclusions it came to and the action taken by the Council as a result of that evaluation process are all necessary steps, in line with agreements already made and signed up to my all members, Greece included, and are one small part of trying to manage this issue at the EU level and stop individual nations just acting in unilateral ways to protect their own interests without regard for the EU as a whole. These attempts may yet fail, Schengen may yet break down even more than the perilous state it is in right now. The EU project in the broadest sense may well be significantly damaged as a result. However the idea that protecting Schengen, looking for EU wide solutions rather individual national ones, would be better served if the EU had NOT sought to identify and have addressed the specific failings by Greece in regards to management of the external EU borders in Greece, is to me nonsense. If Schengen is to survive, if those individual Schengen nations that have imposed 'temporary' unilateral border controls are to remove them and return to normal Schengen operation, as it was pre 2015, then the failures identified in the evaluation report MUST be addressed. The only option if this can not be achieved is to either give up on trying to save Schengen entirely or to remake Schengen without Greece as a member - both options which to me are far worse, for the EU AND for Greece, than producing the evaluation report that they did.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:12 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:They should not criticize Greece because this is an extra-ordinary situation. There is an easy solution for Greece: Not accept any immigrants. Send her coastguard and battleships and prevent anybody from entering the country illegally. This is what Crysi Avgi would do. Is this what you want?


Ignoring that your 'easy solution' is in fact not an easy one at all, legally or in any practical way, I reject the very notion that there are only two binary options of let Greece carry on as it was in 2015 without any criticism or attempt to get it to improve the situation, or accept that Crysi Avgi will get voted in and not allow a single irregular migrant to reach Greece.


It is very easily done, and Greece is easily capable.

Unfortunately, the current administration is not willing to do it. Which is one of the reasons why a few EU Countries are pissed with Greece. It is no different from shutting down borders, like some EU countries have done, like FYROM, Serbia, Hungary, Austria etc etc. Greece could shut down its borders too.

It is also crazy from a security point of view to let them in, especially under the current circumstances of yet another terrorist attack in Europe.

No one cares about Schengen right now, and they're are powerless to bully other countries. Schengen will break down because of the actions of the other EU States who have closed down their borders, not Greece which has been very accommodating - too accommodating.

Last time I checked, you still need papers to actually cross Schengen borders - at least another EU ID card. Doesn't mean that anyone can just cross.
Last edited by Paphitis on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:19 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: Yes, that's because THAT is where the EU JOINT external border, which has been trashed by Turkey, happens to be!

They didn't criticize GREECE! What? Was it too hot? Too many beaches? Not liberal enough? :roll:

They identified the shortfalls in the JOINT border responsibility and THAT is why we have been seeing so much talk about the need for EFFORT from those non-compliant countries who have not contributed to the defense of the JOINT EU External border that is signposted by Greece.


The following is THE Implementing decision of Council of the European Union 12 February 2016

Council Implementing Decision 12 February 2016 wrote: Subject: Council Implementing Decision setting out a Recommendation on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation of the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external borders by Greece.

It is of utmost importance that Greece addresses the issues identified in the report adopted by the Commission as a matter of priority and urgency.

The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.

The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents

HEREBY RECOMMENDS: Greece should (there follows 50 specific recommendations that Greece needs to implement within three months)


GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sadly, you and STUD are stuck in some imaginary world where the country that has done the MOST to help migrants is somehow 'criticized'. Pathetic!


I am stuck in the real world. The one where, when the EU commission and Council say ACCORDING TO EROLZ66 Greece was seriously deficient, it means they think Greece was seriously deficient. You are the one stuck in your own self made fantasy world where, when the EU commission and Council say Greece was seriously deficient, that actually means the whole EU was seriously deficient. There is only one way to describe your position and that is one of blatant unremitting denial - considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development.


Again, you project your feelings about Greece on comments to do with border management which is a joint venture and not the lone responsibility of Greece. The recommendations are proposed to Greece. The recommendations are about MORE FRONTEX help!

Nowhere does the EU Commission and Council say (to quote you) "Greece was seriously deficient". You are a scheming twister who spins something about joint management of the borders as a deficiency by Greece. LIES!

FIND THE QUOTE!

Council Implementing Decision setting out a RECOMMENDATION on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation on the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external borders by Greece


An unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) was carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015. Following this visit, a report covering the findings and assessments, listing best practices and deficiencies identified during the evaluation was adopted on 2 February 2016 by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450]. The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.

And
The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents. Under the current circumstances, situational awareness and reaction capability are not sufficient for efficient border surveillance. These serious deficiencies relating to external border control constitute a serious threat to public policy and internal security and put at risk the overall functioning of the area without internal border control.

The serious deficiencies referred to represent, as far as the carrying out of external border controls is concerned, a situation where the obligations referred to in Article 16(1) and (4) of Regulation (EU) No 1053/2013 have not been met.


Note NO OTHER COUNTRY MENTIONED....i have asked you to explain how the mechanism you say exists operates wherby as you claim other countries share responsibility , i repeat, Frontex can only provide on the ground assistance when asked by a member. That did not happen till 3rd December, about three weeks after the insoection thst found the Greeks had fucked up.i thus repeat my question..
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:21 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: Yes, that's because THAT is where the EU JOINT external border, which has been trashed by Turkey, happens to be!

They didn't criticize GREECE! What? Was it too hot? Too many beaches? Not liberal enough? :roll:

They identified the shortfalls in the JOINT border responsibility and THAT is why we have been seeing so much talk about the need for EFFORT from those non-compliant countries who have not contributed to the defense of the JOINT EU External border that is signposted by Greece.


The following is THE Implementing decision of Council of the European Union 12 February 2016

Council Implementing Decision 12 February 2016 wrote: Subject: Council Implementing Decision setting out a Recommendation on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation of the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external borders by Greece.

It is of utmost importance that Greece addresses the issues identified in the report adopted by the Commission as a matter of priority and urgency.

The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.

The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents

HEREBY RECOMMENDS: Greece should (there follows 50 specific recommendations that Greece needs to implement within three months)


GreekIslandGirl wrote:Sadly, you and STUD are stuck in some imaginary world where the country that has done the MOST to help migrants is somehow 'criticized'. Pathetic!


I am stuck in the real world. The one where, when the EU commission and Council say ACCORDING TO EROLZ66 Greece was seriously deficient, it means they think Greece was seriously deficient. You are the one stuck in your own self made fantasy world where, when the EU commission and Council say Greece was seriously deficient, that actually means the whole EU was seriously deficient. There is only one way to describe your position and that is one of blatant unremitting denial - considered one of the most primitive of the defense mechanisms because it is characteristic of early childhood development.


Again, you project your feelings about Greece on comments to do with border management which is a joint venture and not the lone responsibility of Greece. The recommendations are proposed to Greece. The recommendations are about MORE FRONTEX help!

Nowhere does the EU Commission and Council say (to quote you) "Greece was seriously deficient". You are a scheming twister who spins something about joint management of the borders as a deficiency by Greece. LIES!

FIND THE QUOTE!

Council Implementing Decision setting out a RECOMMENDATION on addressing the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation on the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external borders by Greece


An unannounced on-site evaluation visit to Greek sea border sites (Chios and Samos Islands) and land border sites (Orestiada, Fylakio, Kastanies, Nea Vyssa) was carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015. Following this visit, a report covering the findings and assessments, listing best practices and deficiencies identified during the evaluation was adopted on 2 February 2016 by Commission Implementing Decision [C(2016)450]. The purpose of this Recommendation is to recommend to Greece remedial actions to address the serious deficiencies identified during the Schengen evaluation in the field of management of external border carried out in 2015.

And
The on-site visit carried out from 10 to 13 November 2015 revealed serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, in particular due to the lack of appropriate identification and registration of irregular migrants at the islands, of sufficient staff, and of sufficient equipment for verifying identity documents. Under the current circumstances, situational awareness and reaction capability are not sufficient for efficient border surveillance. These serious deficiencies relating to external border control constitute a serious threat to public policy and internal security and put at risk the overall functioning of the area without internal border control.

The serious deficiencies referred to represent, as far as the carrying out of external border controls is concerned, a situation where the obligations referred to in Article 16(1) and (4) of Regulation (EU) No 1053/2013 have not been met.


Note NO OTHER COUNTRY MENTIONED....i have asked you to explain how the mechanism you say exists operates wherby as you claim other countries share responsibility , i repeat, Frontex can only provide on the ground assistance when asked by a member. That did not happen till 3rd December, about three weeks after the insoection thst found the Greeks had fucked up.i thus repeat my question..


Well that just means you're all idiots.

other EU countries have shut their borders and allowing a humanitarian catastrophe to occur at Idomeni.

Basically, all of you European arseholes can FUCK OFF!
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:40 am

Paphitis wrote: It is very easily done, and Greece is easily capable.

Unfortunately, the current administration is not willing to do it. Which is one of the reasons why a few EU Countries are pissed with Greece. It is no different from shutting down borders, like some EU countries have done, like FYROM, Serbia, Hungary, Austria etc etc. Greece could shut down its borders too.


Shutting down land borders, itself no easy task, involving inevitably walls, razor wire and the like is totally different from sealing off 14,000 odd km of coastline, at least that is how it seems to me.

Paphitis wrote:Last time I checked, you still need papers to actually cross Schengen borders - at least another EU ID card. Doesn't mean that anyone can just cross.


I do not think you are correct here. You can drive from France into Belgium (to give one example) without having to show any ID to anyone, just as you can from England into Wales or Scotland, or from Nevada to California or from New SOuth Wales to Queensland. That is the whole point of Schengen.

Here is a google maps street view of a road in Belgium just before it enters France. All there is is a signpost saying 'France' - that is it.

http://www.google.com/maps/@50.6078954, ... 312!8i6656
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