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Greece under EU orders re borders

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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:47 am

Paphitis wrote: It is very easily done, and Greece is easily capable.

Unfortunately, the current administration is not willing to do it. Which is one of the reasons why a few EU Countries are pissed with Greece. It is no different from shutting down borders, like some EU countries have done, like FYROM, Serbia, Hungary, Austria etc etc. Greece could shut down its borders too.


erolz66 wrote:Shutting down land borders, itself no easy task, involving inevitably walls, razor wire and the like is totally different from sealing off 14,000 odd km of coastline, at least that is how it seems to me.


Don't tell me shutting down the Aegean isn't easy. A few patrol boats and a couple of surveillance aircraft and the Border is closed.

Greece has the ability to do it easily. Australia does it over a Sea Border much larger than the Mediterranean. If you think it's impossible, then Google Search Australian Customs, Australian Border Security, Coastwatch, Surveillance Drones, Surveillance Australia, RAAF AP-3C

Paphitis wrote:Last time I checked, you still need papers to actually cross Schengen borders - at least another EU ID card. Doesn't mean that anyone can just cross.


erolz66 wrote:I do not think you are correct here. You can drive from France into Belgium (to give one example) without having to show any ID to anyone, just as you can from England into Wales or Scotland, or from Nevada to California or from New SOuth Wales to Queensland. That is the whole point of Schengen.

Here is a google maps street view of a road in Belgium just before it enters France. All there is is a signpost saying 'France' - that is it.

http://www.google.com/maps/@50.6078954, ... 312!8i6656


How do you know I am not correct? Our Security Agencies don't believe you.

You are just making a lot of assumptions, and probably are a wishful thinker.

Well these types of assumptions get people killed and it could be your family next.

I'm all for helping refugees out, but unfortunately, organisations like DAESH will always try and smuggle their jihadist terrorists among them.
Last edited by Paphitis on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:49 am

Paphitis wrote:other EU countries have shut their borders and allowing a humanitarian catastrophe to occur at Idomeni.


These other countries have unilaterally closed their borders (and have been allowed to temporarily by the EU and under EU law) because in 2015 hundreds of thousands of migrants arrived in Greece and were 'waved through' without any processing of them what so ever. No recording of who, how many, checking travel documents - nothing. If this then becomes the 'solution' - a total break down of Schengen entirely with individual countries acting alone to control their own borders without regard for the impact on other EU members, then 2016 will be much worse for Greece and those migrants that end up 'trapped' there than 2015 was. It is exactly to try and stop this becoming the de facto 'solution', that the EU produced the evaluation report it did and the council adopted it. The EU can not tell those members that imposed temporary border controls that they must remove them, whilst hundreds of thousands of people are entering the Schengen area without any processing at all. It is only by getting on top of that processing, in Greece but also in Italy, can the EU then say to the likes of Austria, you must now remove your temporary border controls and return to how things were pre 2015.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:55 am

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote:other EU countries have shut their borders and allowing a humanitarian catastrophe to occur at Idomeni.


These other countries have unilaterally closed their borders (and have been allowed to temporarily by the EU and under EU law) because in 2015 hundreds of thousands of migrants arrived in Greece and were 'waved through' without any processing of them what so ever. No recording of who, how many, checking travel documents - nothing. If this then becomes the 'solution' - a total break down of Schengen entirely with individual countries acting alone to control their own borders without regard for the impact on other EU members, then 2016 will be much worse for Greece and those migrants that end up 'trapped' there than 2015 was. It is exactly to try and stop this becoming the de facto 'solution', that the EU produced the evaluation report it did and the council adopted it. The EU can not tell those members that imposed temporary border controls that they must remove them, whilst hundreds of thousands of people are entering the Schengen area without any processing at all. It is only by getting on top of that processing, in Greece but also in Italy, can the EU then say to the likes of Austria, you must now remove your temporary border controls and return to how things were pre 2015.


OK then. So Greece can shut its borders. It can do so unilaterally.

Greece wasn't the only country. Italy did exactly the same. It's called being humanitarian, and so far, Greece is way ahead of the game if compassion and humanity is your criteria. Unfortunately for Greece, it will need to change tact, because the other EU countries won't have a bar of it. The problem with Greece is that they have Turkey as their neighbor.

Turkey has been waving them through, and whenever a Greek Patrol Boat goes anywhere near, they are harassed by Turkish criminals who are supporting Turkish People Smugglers.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:00 am

Paphitis wrote: How do you know I am not correct? Our Security Agencies don't believe you.

You are just making a lot of assumptions, and probably are a wishful thinker.

Well these types of assumptions get people killed and it could be your family next.

I'm all for helping refugees out, but unfortunately, organisations like DAESH will always try and smuggle their jihadist terrorists among them.


???? Easy big boy !

Look either you do have to show some ID when you cross say from Belgium into France or you do not. That is a reality that exits independent of how 'wishful a thinker' I may or may not be and is not a matter of assumption. You said you think you still have to show ID when crossing internal Schengen borders. I think you are wrong in any routine sense and I think the evidence that supports this is pretty easy to find if you care to consider beyond just assumption.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:04 am

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote: How do you know I am not correct? Our Security Agencies don't believe you.

You are just making a lot of assumptions, and probably are a wishful thinker.

Well these types of assumptions get people killed and it could be your family next.

I'm all for helping refugees out, but unfortunately, organisations like DAESH will always try and smuggle their jihadist terrorists among them.


???? Easy big boy !

Look either you do have to show some ID when you cross say from Belgium into France or you do not. That is a reality that exits independent of how 'wishful a thinker' I may or may not be and is not a matter of assumption. You said you think you still have to show ID when crossing internal Schengen borders. I think you are wrong in any routine sense and I think the evidence that supports this is pretty easy to find if you care to consider beyond just assumption.


Well then, that just proves to me that the EU and Schengen are all fucked up and a bunch of idiots.

For being so STUPID, you almost deserve these terrorist attacks. Natural Selection and all that.

How STUPID can you get?

Are you sure you're all that STUPID and totally [email protected]#ked in the head? I find it hard to believe!
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:09 am

Paphitis wrote: Well then, that just proves to me that the EU and Schengen are all fucked up and a bunch of idiots.

For being so STUPID, you almost deserve these terrorist attacks. Natural Selection and all that.

How STUPID can you get?

Are you sure you're all that STUPID and totally [email protected]#ked in the head? I find it hard to believe!


Would the US be safer from terrorist attacks if you were required to show ID when crossing from one state to another ? Would Australia ? Maybe they would but there would also be a cost in imposing border controls between states (in the US or Australia) and not just monetary, there would be a very real cost, imo at least, in the very ideal of a united federal nation of America or Australia.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:12 am

erolz66 wrote:
Paphitis wrote: Well then, that just proves to me that the EU and Schengen are all fucked up and a bunch of idiots.

For being so STUPID, you almost deserve these terrorist attacks. Natural Selection and all that.

How STUPID can you get?

Are you sure you're all that STUPID and totally [email protected]#ked in the head? I find it hard to believe!


Would the US be safer from terrorist attacks if you were required to show ID when crossing from one state to another ? Would Australia ? Maybe they would but there would also be a cost in imposing border controls between states (in the US or Australia) and not just monetary, there would be a very real cost, imo at least, in the very ideal of a united federal nation of America or Australia.


Oh you need a lot more than an ID Card to get in the US. Plus they sometimes take finger prints and photograph your retina.

You need a VISA.

So now you've proven that the USA is way smarter than the EU, which I now realize doesn't take much considering how stuffed up Schengen and the EU really are.

Yes there are similar controls for Australia. Finger Prints, and VISA required. And yes we are happy to pay for all this infrastructure. Keeps people employed.

Not just that, but they want your criminal record too, and if they see something they don't like - such as rape, violence, assault, drug or theft crimes then they won't grant you a VISA.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Sotos » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:21 am

These other countries have unilaterally closed their borders (and have been allowed to temporarily by the EU and under EU law) because in 2015 hundreds of thousands of migrants arrived in Greece and were 'waved through' without any processing of them what so ever.


So Greece is supposed to accept just ANYBODY coming from Turkey but the rest can accept only those who are processed? Greece is acting in a humanitarian way and it is welcoming everybody, even though they are too many to properly process. They can change this policy and put Schengen above the lives of people... this is clearly what other countries are doing. If this is what you think is right for Greece to do then say it openly.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:27 am

...in any case, it is Greece, and the Greek people, that are demonstrating what it is to be "European", better than the EU, or the other Nations which have closed their borders, because, obviously there is no plan.

This European crisis, is not caused by Greeks, Greece, or their acts, it is in the expectation that under this crisis, somehow Greece must rally, indeed Greece will rally, given the support it needs, technically, in manpower, and in capacity. Italy is next no doubt, who will be seeking the same help, because to the migrant they are reaching the external border of Europe. And other than Syrians, the Afghans, for example, no Policy exists within the context of this "migrant crisis", no policy that helps them, that is, their lives have been put in a more dangerous place. Greece is not the problem, Greece has problems, the help they need is for the membership to do their part, firstly; to find their nerve, and to face their own fears, to be more welcoming, and understanding, to real victims of a world in horrible conflict, they are not "numbers", they are more than photos that once in while pull at our hearts, they are the future, if they are saved, allies, our friends and neighbours, against an enemy who dares us to remain as intolerant to their victims, as them.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:55 am

Paphitis wrote:Oh you need a lot more than an ID Card to get in the US. Plus they sometimes take finger prints and photograph your retina.

You need a VISA.

So now you've proven that the USA is way smarter than the EU, which I now realize doesn't take much considering how stuffed up Schengen and the EU really are.

Yes there are similar controls for Australia. Finger Prints, and VISA required. And yes we are happy to pay for all this infrastructure. Keeps people employed.

Not just that, but they want your criminal record too, and if they see something they don't like - such as rape, violence, assault, drug or theft crimes then they won't grant you a VISA.


These are the requirements for entering the Schengen area from outside that area. Once inside the area, then there are no routine checks internally. These are exactly the sort of checks that Greece was failing to do on the EXTERNAL schengen borders it was and is responsible for. Is what I am saying really that obtuse ?

Once I arrive in the US (or Australia) there is a border check on me. If let in I can then move from the US state I arrived in to any other state without INTERNAL border controls once inside. This is how Schengen is supposed to work. Control is at the EXTERNAL borders to the Schengen, internally there is not border controls.
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