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Greece under EU orders re borders

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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:01 am

...and obviously the EU is deficient in exercising a Policy that can be respected, external border or not, Greece is not alone in deficiency.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:10 am

Sotos wrote:
These other countries have unilaterally closed their borders (and have been allowed to temporarily by the EU and under EU law) because in 2015 hundreds of thousands of migrants arrived in Greece and were 'waved through' without any processing of them what so ever.


So Greece is supposed to accept just ANYBODY coming from Turkey but the rest can accept only those who are processed? Greece is acting in a humanitarian way and it is welcoming everybody, even though they are too many to properly process. They can change this policy and put Schengen above the lives of people... this is clearly what other countries are doing. If this is what you think is right for Greece to do then say it openly.


I sometimes wonder why I bother ?

All Schengen members with EXTERNAL borders are supposed to control those EXTERNAL borders, so that the need for any INTERNAL (to the Schengen area) boarders are not necessary (just as they are not between England and Wales or Scotland, or between states within the US or Australia etc).

Greece is not welcoming everybody, the very notion is absurd. Nor can it simply choose to do so without being in breach of the agreements it has made and signed. Greece's obligations re the management of Schengen EXTERNAL borders that are in Greece are exactly the same as any and every other Schengen member that has Schengen EXTERNAL boarders. Those Schengen countries that have unilaterally re imposed boarder controls are doing so on INTERNAL boarders. They always have had controls on any EXTERNAL borders and indeed must have such controls as per their obligations under Schengen Acquis.

What the EU needs to do is get a working means of dealing with this crisis at an EU wide level. This involves ensuring that all countries with EXTERNAL boarders process those migrants arriving there properly. It also needs a proper agreed fair way of then distributing those migrants that have valid asylum claims across all member states as well as proper mechanism for evaluating such claims and returning those who do not have valid right to asylum. So far it is failing in getting these things in place, and as a result Schengen is breaking down and to a degree the EU project in it's broadest sense is breaking down. Such a break down will and is affecting Greece way more than it is affecting other members. In 2015 800,000 migrants with valid asylum claims passed through Greece on their way to other countries. If the EU fails to get an EU wide system in place (which includes getting Greece to manage is external boarders properly) then in 2016 there will be 800,000 migrants with a valid asylum claim STUCK IN GREECE. Is THIS what YOU want for Greece ?
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:32 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...and obviously the EU is deficient in exercising a Policy that can be respected, external border or not, Greece is not alone in deficiency.


No one is saying that Greece alone is the cause of all the problems ? Greece, followed by Italy have the biggest challenges because of their geographic location but if Schengen is to survive you can not just say 'well do not criticise Greece if it is failing to manage its EXTERNAL schengen boarders properly'. It is not about blame , though people here seem obsessed with it being about blame. Without Schengen Greece is actually fucked, in the sense that the challenges it faces are just Greece's problem if there is no Schengen. As part of Schengen they are everyone's problem. One 'solution' would be to temporarily remove Greece from Schengen and move the Schengen area External boarder to mainland Europe - but such would be a disaster for Greece - just like we are seeing now but worse. The evaluation report, the criticism of Greece , the threat of temporary suspension of Greece from Schengen are all with the intent and purpose of AVOIDING the necessity for Greece to be suspended from Schengen. In that sense it is not a threat, it just a statement of reality. If Greece is unable to control the external Schengen boarder it will ultimately have to be suspended from Schengen until such times as it can again control it.

Dealing with 'processing' migrants that arrive at EU / Schengen external boarders is 'triage'. The real test for the EU and the countries that make it up is how it treats those who have arrived, been processed properly and been found to have a valid right to asylum. That is the real test in the medium term, if and when the 'triage' of dealing with the actual processing on arrival can be dealt with. That has always been the true test of how 'compassionate' a country is to asylum seekers - how many a given country will give asylum to relative to its own population size. That was the measure before this current crisis and it will remain through it and past it. Greece is not the best in this regard and nor is it the worst.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby Sotos » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:09 am

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
These other countries have unilaterally closed their borders (and have been allowed to temporarily by the EU and under EU law) because in 2015 hundreds of thousands of migrants arrived in Greece and were 'waved through' without any processing of them what so ever.


So Greece is supposed to accept just ANYBODY coming from Turkey but the rest can accept only those who are processed? Greece is acting in a humanitarian way and it is welcoming everybody, even though they are too many to properly process. They can change this policy and put Schengen above the lives of people... this is clearly what other countries are doing. If this is what you think is right for Greece to do then say it openly.


I sometimes wonder why I bother ?

All Schengen members with EXTERNAL borders are supposed to control those EXTERNAL borders, so that the need for any INTERNAL (to the Schengen area) boarders are not necessary (just as they are not between England and Wales or Scotland, or between states within the US or Australia etc).

Greece is not welcoming everybody, the very notion is absurd. Nor can it simply choose to do so without being in breach of the agreements it has made and signed. Greece's obligations re the management of Schengen EXTERNAL borders that are in Greece are exactly the same as any and every other Schengen member that has Schengen EXTERNAL boarders. Those Schengen countries that have unilaterally re imposed boarder controls are doing so on INTERNAL boarders. They always have had controls on any EXTERNAL borders and indeed must have such controls as per their obligations under Schengen Acquis.

What the EU needs to do is get a working means of dealing with this crisis at an EU wide level. This involves ensuring that all countries with EXTERNAL boarders process those migrants arriving there properly. It also needs a proper agreed fair way of then distributing those migrants that have valid asylum claims across all member states as well as proper mechanism for evaluating such claims and returning those who do not have valid right to asylum. So far it is failing in getting these things in place, and as a result Schengen is breaking down and to a degree the EU project in it's broadest sense is breaking down. Such a break down will and is affecting Greece way more than it is affecting other members. In 2015 800,000 migrants with valid asylum claims passed through Greece on their way to other countries. If the EU fails to get an EU wide system in place (which includes getting Greece to manage is external boarders properly) then in 2016 there will be 800,000 migrants with a valid asylum claim STUCK IN GREECE. Is THIS what YOU want for Greece ?


Clearly the external borders of EU can not be controlled if people are allowed to enter Greece by landing on the beaches of Greek islands. The proper way to enter Greece which would allow Greece to control its borders is for people to enter Greece by passing through the border crossings or by using its legal ports of entry (ports, airports). Greece is allowing people to enter Greece (and therefore enter EU) in an improper way for HUMANITARIAN reasons. This is because Greece, unlike many other countries, places human lives above the control of borders. If Greece didn't care for the lives of those people they could easily use their coastguard and navy to prevent this uncontrolled entry of people and tell them that if they want to enter Greece they should line up at the border crossings at Evros where the papers of each and every one of them would be checked BEFORE allowed entry into the country (and therefore EU).
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:08 pm

erolz66 wrote:All Schengen members with EXTERNAL borders are supposed to control those EXTERNAL borders, so that the need for any INTERNAL (to the Schengen area) boarders are not necessary ...


What a fascistic little dictator you sound like. All sound and fury.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:12 pm

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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:29 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/msf-pulls-out-of-lesbos-hotspot-in-yet-another-blow-to-eu/


Good. Oxfam need to look after clothing the ditsirous in UK before they help land more migrants onto Greece for poor Greeks to feed and clothe.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:35 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:All Schengen members with EXTERNAL borders are supposed to control those EXTERNAL borders, so that the need for any INTERNAL (to the Schengen area) boarders are not necessary ...


What a fascistic little dictator you sound like. All sound and fury.


Well gig as usual , when you are unable to deal with the message, you are playing the man not the ball... Erolz is quite correct. That is what you have to deal with, not your own bitter perceptions of the manner in which you think tbe message was put.,
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:26 am

Sotos wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
These other countries have unilaterally closed their borders (and have been allowed to temporarily by the EU and under EU law) because in 2015 hundreds of thousands of migrants arrived in Greece and were 'waved through' without any processing of them what so ever.


So Greece is supposed to accept just ANYBODY coming from Turkey but the rest can accept only those who are processed? Greece is acting in a humanitarian way and it is welcoming everybody, even though they are too many to properly process. They can change this policy and put Schengen above the lives of people... this is clearly what other countries are doing. If this is what you think is right for Greece to do then say it openly.


I sometimes wonder why I bother ?

All Schengen members with EXTERNAL borders are supposed to control those EXTERNAL borders, so that the need for any INTERNAL (to the Schengen area) boarders are not necessary (just as they are not between England and Wales or Scotland, or between states within the US or Australia etc).

Greece is not welcoming everybody, the very notion is absurd. Nor can it simply choose to do so without being in breach of the agreements it has made and signed. Greece's obligations re the management of Schengen EXTERNAL borders that are in Greece are exactly the same as any and every other Schengen member that has Schengen EXTERNAL boarders. Those Schengen countries that have unilaterally re imposed boarder controls are doing so on INTERNAL boarders. They always have had controls on any EXTERNAL borders and indeed must have such controls as per their obligations under Schengen Acquis.

What the EU needs to do is get a working means of dealing with this crisis at an EU wide level. This involves ensuring that all countries with EXTERNAL boarders process those migrants arriving there properly. It also needs a proper agreed fair way of then distributing those migrants that have valid asylum claims across all member states as well as proper mechanism for evaluating such claims and returning those who do not have valid right to asylum. So far it is failing in getting these things in place, and as a result Schengen is breaking down and to a degree the EU project in it's broadest sense is breaking down. Such a break down will and is affecting Greece way more than it is affecting other members. In 2015 800,000 migrants with valid asylum claims passed through Greece on their way to other countries. If the EU fails to get an EU wide system in place (which includes getting Greece to manage is external boarders properly) then in 2016 there will be 800,000 migrants with a valid asylum claim STUCK IN GREECE. Is THIS what YOU want for Greece ?


Clearly the external borders of EU can not be controlled if people are allowed to enter Greece by landing on the beaches of Greek islands. The proper way to enter Greece which would allow Greece to control its borders is for people to enter Greece by passing through the border crossings or by using its legal ports of entry (ports, airports). Greece is allowing people to enter Greece (and therefore enter EU) in an improper way for HUMANITARIAN reasons. This is because Greece, unlike many other countries, places human lives above the control of borders. If Greece didn't care for the lives of those people they could easily use their coastguard and navy to prevent this uncontrolled entry of people and tell them that if they want to enter Greece they should line up at the border crossings at Evros where the papers of each and every one of them would be checked BEFORE allowed entry into the country (and therefore EU).


Sotos your point is reasonably put but it is not about stopping people, but recording those who arrive and if there are genuine humanitarian reasons to admit them to do so. There is a big question whether many are genuine refugees bearing in mind some have been living and working in Turkey for some years and where their lives were plainly not at risk, and where in any event not all are Syrians fleeing the conflict.

If Greece is happy just to allow everyone in,, without checks on who they are, and that is the nature if the problem, you provide grist to the mill of those who are wanting to suspend The operation of Schengen as it applies to Greece and who will try leave them as Greece's problem to Provide for them.

Contrary to the misrepresentations of "g"IG that is not my position. I would prefer the irregular migrants are recorded and then Greece is given proper assistance to help these people. That way Greece can still benefit from Schengen.
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Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:57 am

...if i recall, given how many years this is going on, Europe's intention was to ignore how many borders these migrants crossed until they arrived to the actual destination of their intention.

It is the threat more recent that has created this crisis, the fear that among these destitute there were a "terror" element which now was demonstrating their significance. Sadly it has not provoked the EU's membership to double down on solidarity, to be seen as the alternative to the madness of ISIS and their ilk, rather than promote more fear by refusing any of these migrating masses.

...under the conditions we see on youtube, it is laudable the actions of ordinary people in Greece. One thing which is a change, apparently, days have gone by without one illegal migrant crossing.
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