The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Greece under EU orders re borders

Feel free to talk about anything that you want.

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:32 am

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:What i have in fact quoted is
22 October 2013


OBSOLETE!


The most absurd argument ever.


It's absurd to you because it's a reality.

Every single EU law is according to you 'obsolete' because every single one is 'historic'.


Your assumptions, not mine! You're irresistibly drawn to creating straw men.

This law is current and active and has not been repealed or replaced, not by the EU Turkey deal on migrants or by any thing else.


Stud first referred to a 2006 version then quoted a 2013 version and I had previously given him the 2016 version! That's what happens, the EU is a work in progress and as soon as they make a code, they add and modify etc etc etc.

You've both come unstuck with this before. By the time you've posted some 'evaluation' another comes along. Both of you pick and choose from matters that have moved on and you apply your own interpretation whilst reality reveals to us more interesting developments.

You both read and interpret, "criticism", "expulsion", "sanctions" - meanwhile, we see the EU has an entirely different interpretation to yours - that of MORE EU countries needing to help with developing MORE Frontex assistance of JOINT EU border patrols and inclusion of NATO and training of Turkey to STOP sending migrants and take some back!

erolz66 wrote:Fact, truth, reality - all are 'obsolete' .


Your motto

Again, demonstrating your practice of jumping in to protect stud in your joint efforts to keep your vision of a 'terrible Greece' going despite the reality!
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8948
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:55 am

Gig

Could you kindly clarify where in this particular topic I have referred to our quoted from the 2006 Version of the SBC?

That is because in this topic you are the first person to refer to 2006:

As to 2006 If you are referring to that do you mean is REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006 establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code) which covers the fundamental aspects of the SBC- right of Free movement? I have not explicitly refereed to that as it is not the topic of discussion.

I am also not refereing to REGULATION (EU) No 610/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 26 June 2013 amending Regulation (EC) No 562/2006 of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a Community Code on the rules governing the movement of persons across borders (Schengen Borders Code), the Convention implementing the Schengen Agreement, Council Regulations (EC) No 1683/95 and (EC) No 539/2001 and Regulations (EC) No 767/2008 and (EC) No 810/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council
or
COUNCIL REGULATION (EU) No 1053/2013 of 7 October 2013 establishing an evaluation and monitoring mechanism to verify the application of the Schengen acquis and repealing the Decision of the Executive Committee of 16 September 1998 setting up a Standing Committee on the evaluation and implementation of Schengen.

In the context of this discuss we are only looking at Articles 19 and 26 of REGULATION (EU) No 1051/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 22 October 2013 amending Regulation (EC) No 562/2006 in order to provide for common rules on the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders in exceptional circumstances , which is specifically target at one aspect of 562/2006

Beyond that while you referred to 2016 regulations What you have not done is posted any information on the 2016 rules which you say are currently in force and which you claim have plainly amended or repealed 1051/2013. Now can you post them instead of making your usual (same old same old ) bland but totally unsupported assertions?

The format can be gleaned from the above which is where old legislation being changed is identified in the heading.

In that respect perhaps you should tell the EU that they are operating under obsolete laws since as I understand it they themselves are following and referring to COUNCIL REGULATION (EU) No 1051/2013 , arts 19(b) and 26(2)
User avatar
supporttheunderdog
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:03 pm
Location: limassol

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:58 pm

Just more nonsense from GiG. Business as usual. Back in the real world

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1344_en.htm

Today, (12th April 2016) the European Commission adopted its assessment of the Action Plan presented by the Greek authorities which details how Greece plans to address the deficiencies in its external border management.


The Roadmap made clear that if the migratory pressures and the identified deficiencies in external border control were to persist beyond 12 May, the Commission would need to present a proposal under Article 26(2) of the Schengen Borders Code to the Council, to allow controls to be prolonged at certain specific borders for a limited period of time. The Commission remains prepared to pursue this course if necessary, as a means of safeguarding the functioning of the Schengen area as a whole.


This process is now under way in the case of Greece, following an evaluation of the application of the Schengen rules in the field of external border management in November 2015. The Evaluation Report, based on on-site visits, and revealing serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border control by Greece, was adopted by the Commission on 2 February 2016. Recommendations for remedial action were adopted by the Council on 12 February 2016. As the Evaluation Report found serious deficiencies, the Commission in addition adopted on 24 February 2016 an implementing decision setting out a Recommendation on specific measures to be taken by Greece. The recommendations seek to ensure that Greece applies all Schengen rules related to management of the external border correctly and effectively.


For months now you have tried to argue the EU did NOT find Greece 'seriously deficient'. That Greece was not responsible for management of external EU Boarders that are within Greece and endless other nonsenses. The reality is plain and clear to see in this latest EU Commission press release, as it has been in all the previous ones relating to this and in the implementing decision taken by the Council. All your "arguments" that the press releases were just 'discussion sites and not the EU' and that the 'EU was not criticising Greece' and that the 'EU was not threatening suspension of Greece from Schengen' and that the 'EU had criticise other countries more than Greece in the evaluation report that matters' and that 'article 26(2) of the Schengen boarder code is no longer valid and has been replaced' - they are all clearly once more shown as divorced from any and all actual reality as seen in this latest official EU press release. As seen in all the previous press releases and EU Council implementing decisions. They all say the same thing. Greece was found to be deficient in an official evaluation report on Greece, following visits of official inspectors to Greece. That having been found deficient in such an evaluation report Greece has 3 months to rectify the deficiencies. If it fails to do so in the allotted time the EU can and will have to consider suspending Greece from Schengen. This was true when I first posted it back following the first press release about the then yet to be adopted evaluation report on Greece. True when it was adopted by the commission, and shown top be true in the press release following that. Still true when the EU council then adopted the Commissions recommendations in an implementing decision of the Council - as shown by the implementing decisions and the press releases about it. It is STILL true today as shown by this latest press release from the EU Commission today. All you screaming and shouting and foot stomping and insults and accusations that I am a liar and that I do not understand and all the rest do not change REALITY one iota. Not then and not now. They just show you for the fanatic you actually are, show how totally divorced from actual reality you are, show how you can and will just deny and distort undeniable actual reality to suit your needs. This is what you do, it is what you have always done here on this forum.
erolz66
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:30 pm

It's up to Greece to agree or disagree with how its borders are protected!

BUT it is a JOINT (EU, Frontex etc and now NATO) management effort to patrol the EU's external border which is geographically delineated by Greece's sovereign territory.

Your snippets don't even do justice to your warped interpretations.
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8948
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:17 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:It's up to Greece to agree or disagree with how its borders are protected!

BUT it is a JOINT (EU, Frontex etc and now NATO) management effort to patrol the EU's external border which is geographically delineated by Greece's sovereign territory.

Your snippets don't even do justice to your warped interpretations.


It is all there in black and white in the EU Commissions own press release. Just as it was through out the entire months you have denied this simple reality and the plain truth stated in each and every press release and the EU Council implementing decision. This what you do when faced with a reality that you do not like. You try to ignore it, you try to deny it, you try to distort it, all while launching incessant ad hominen attacks against those who show the reality you do not like with the hardest possible evidence . It is what you do here on this forum. It is what you have always done here on this forum.

Fact GREECE was found to be seriously deficient in its external border management. Not Frontex, not NATO, but GREECE. It SAYS that explicitly in every press release about this issue and in the EU Council implementing decision. Yet you STILL just ignore , distort and deny this plain and evident fact. This is what you do.

Fact GREECE has until the 12 May to rectify these deficiencies. Not Frontex, not NATO, but GREECE. It says that explicltly in this latest press release and in others previously. Yet you STILL just ignore , distort and deny this plain and evident fact. This is what you do.

If GREECE fails to achieve this , then the EU may suspend GREECE from Schengen. Not Frontex, not NATO, but GREECE. It says that in this latest press release and in others previously. Yet you STILL just ignore , distort and deny this plain and evident fact. This is what you do.

There is the truth and reality all laid out clearly and plainly in the EU's own press releases and the EU Councils implementing decision and then there is your fantasy world which bears no relation to this reality what so ever. Same old same old. To know that thes facts above are true you just have to READ this latest press release (or the many previous ones). It is ALLL there.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1344_en.htm
erolz66
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:15 pm

erolz66 wrote:It is all there in black and white in the EU Commissions own press release.


Stop getting so excited over a press release. :roll:
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8948
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:38 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:It is all there in black and white in the EU Commissions own press release.


Stop getting so excited over a press release. :roll:


The months and months of your systematic distortion of factual reality on this issue are undeniable. They can be summed up by comparing

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Nowhere does the EU Commission and Council say (to quote you) "Greece was seriously deficient" FIND THE QUOTE!


The very first EU Commission press release that started all this wrote:the draft (now no longer draft) report concludes that Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities.


All your months of lies, your distortions of reality, are shown for what they are by comparing these two things. What YOU claim and what the EU ACTUALLY SAID.

That you have tried to maintain these blatant lies and distortions of yours for month after month, whilst launching sustained and persistent personal attacks against me and stud, like the one below, for daring to show your distortions and lies for what they are, using the hardest and most credible evidence and sources possible,

GreekIslandGirl wrote:You are a scheming twister who spins something about joint management of the borders as a deficiency by Greece. LIES!


to me just shows how much integrity your behaviour here actually has. Namely none what so ever. This is what you do - you lie and distort, whilst claiming those who show up your lies and distortions for what they, are the ones lying and distorting. This what you have always done here on this forum. In my view no one else on this forum does this as consistently and persistently as you have and continue to do.
erolz66
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:57 pm

erolz66 wrote:The months and months of your systematic distortion of factual reality on this issue are undeniable.


Funny that! When all the while, it's you and stud who have been predicting "expulsion" and "sanctions" against Greece and all we've seen are my predicted extra help being offered with Greece's external border management.
User avatar
GreekIslandGirl
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8948
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:03 am

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:54 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:It's up to Greece to agree or disagree with how its borders are protected!

BUT it is a JOINT (EU, Frontex etc and now NATO) management effort to patrol the EU's external border which is geographically delineated by Greece's sovereign territory.

Your snippets don't even do justice to your warped interpretations.


You are the one with the warped interpretations, where you consistently seek to wilfully misrepresent and misconstrue my position, and the best you can do by way of argument is to engage in bland assertion or bald denial, coated with a layer of bile, but with not one supporting bit of verifiable evidence to counter the direct references and quotes we have provided, from official EU sources.

You misrepresented I had referred to a 2006 regulation, when I was quoting from the 2013 version, the consolidated version at that.

You then misrepresented that the 2013 regulations had been surpassed by 2016 regulations, but without producing one shred of credible evidence: The 2013 rules under 1051/2013 are the newest, and Laws do not run out simply because they are (three years) old unless they have a defined expiry mechanism in them.

Now if you want to discus the role of Frontex I suggest you look here at the consolidated regulations reflecting the most recent rules which are currently in force, though in the the light of the migrant crisis there are proposals in hand and due to be implemented which, when they come into effect will change the position.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/e-library/documents/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/docs/frontex_regulation_consolidated_2011_en.pdf

I have asked you to explain the mechanism and/or otherwise clarify the basis on which other member nations e.g. Belgium be involved in controlling Greece. Again you have failed to do so, simply repeated the same mantra. Same old, same old, that is what you do

Now I suggest you read the below and weep.

What does Frontex do specifically?
While operations are the most visible part of Frontex’s activities, the agency also covers other areas including:
risk analysis - analysing trends in unauthorised border crossings and various forms of cross-border crime;
rapid response - coordinating the short-term deployment of European Border Guard Teams at the request of Member States;
research and development - linking border control authorities with research organisations and industry;
training -  developing harmonised curricula and training standards  for border guards in all 28 EU countries
joint returns - coordinating joint repatriation flights of third country nationals between member countries;
Information sharing - enabling swift and reliable data exchange between border authorities.

Does Frontex have its own equipment and border guards?
No. Frontex does not have its own equipment. Instead, it relies on vessels, aircraft and other assets provided by various EU member states. Frontex reimburses the costs of fuel and basic maintenance of such equipment for the period of its deployment. 

Does Frontex replace border control of the EU countries?
No. Frontex only provides additional technical assistance to EU countries that face an increased migratory pressure. All the means and border guards deployed by Frontex work under the command of the national authorities. For example, there is always a national officer from a host country present aboard every vessel, patrol plane or helicopter deployed by Frontex.


I am not going to quote the source, I suggest you look for it your self , but rest assured it is about as official and authoritative as any website can be, or will you try and tell Frontex they are wrong. It is however all accordance with this paragraph 4 quoted which is valid and unamended EU law, though other parts of EC2007/2004 have been changed, and this law will likely be replaced soon.
(4)  The responsibility for the control and surveillance of external borders lies with the Member States. The Agency should facilitate the application of existing and future Community measures relating to the management of external borders by ensuring the coordination of Member States’ actions in the imple­ mentation of those measures.


I think that shows how badly you have misrepresented the role of Frontex, simply to try to direct blame away from that mythical lala land you call Greece, in case it punctures the bubble that forms your world view where Greece and Greeks as you see them can do no wrong. Sorry to say they can. 






User avatar
supporttheunderdog
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8160
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:03 pm
Location: limassol

Re: Greece under EU orders re borders

Postby erolz66 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:06 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:The months and months of your systematic distortion of factual reality on this issue are undeniable.


Funny that! When all the while, it's you and stud who have been predicting "expulsion" and "sanctions" against Greece and all we've seen are my predicted extra help being offered with Greece's external border management.


Neither of us predicted that Greece would be suspended. We stated the fact, supported by the hardest of primary source evidence possible, that such a suspension was possible and had been explicitly laid out as possible by the the EU commission and then the EU Council, if Greece failed to rectify the the serious deficiencies identified in the evaluation report on Greece. That was true when we first stated it and remains true today. What is NOT true and has never been true are your repeated over and over and often shouted and screamed claims.

You might just as well have spent the last few months screaming and shouting 'Greeks are better than any other people who are not Greek' over and over and over. Such would have had no less intellectual rigour or force than the claims you have made over and over and over in relation to this, but would at least have been an honest portrayal of your position. You behaviour here is, in my view, systematically and consistently over years, that of the singularly most intellectually and morally bankrupt poster I have ever seen, not just on this forum but on any forum.
erolz66
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:31 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests