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Why being wrong really hurts

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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:42 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:The other day Mr-From-Ng who is generally a respectable person, said the Tcs cannot live with the Gcs without Turkey's guarantees. No matter how reality actually proved him wrong he maintains this belief from his childhood experiences. It's nearly impossible to convince him otherwise and impossible to take this belief out of him. In this respect I would never expect him to admit wrong, just respect his right to think like he does, and forget about it.
Needless to say I respect GIC too for many reasons, while i also think on some issues she's driven from wrong beliefs.


I understand what you are saying - really I do. However to me a question like 'which evaluation document' is a given EU Council implementing decision based on - to me that is so clearly and obviously not a matter of opinion, To me it is simply a matter of fact. That the adopted decision is based on the evaluation document that the decision itself explicitly describes and says it is based, is to me so self evidently fact, that it is embarrassing to have to even say it. When faced with someone who just claims over and over and over relentlessly that the decision is based on an entirely different document, and does this as though such is 'rational argument' - well that does I am afraid drive me nuts.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:11 pm

This post is a follow up to one here where I said "(and this is probably personal which I will come back to in another post another day)." This then is the other post and other day

I have need to understand. I thirst for it. I always have done so from being a child to today and I hope it will never change to the day I die. From childhood to today I can not look at a mechanical mechanism and not want to open it up and see how part a pushes part b that in turn drives part C. I remember as a young child being taught Newtons laws of motion. I remember to this day the 'experiments' we did with little carts on wheels being pulled by weights, dragging strips of paper through 'ticker tape' devices that marked little dots on the paper strips and differing intervals. I remember the sheer wonder and amazement as 'pieces of the puzzle' started falling into place in my head and as understanding of these laws formed in my head. I remember being in awe of the 'fundamental truth' that seemed to have been revealed to me and that I was able to understand. Just as I remember some years later my despondency on discovering Einstein's theory of relativity when it became apparent to me that actually Newtons 'laws' on motion were no such thing, that actually they were really Newtons best approximation as to how the world behaves that work well at certain scales but not at others. I remember actually feeling like I had been lied to and duped, cheated and actively deceived by my teachers. I also remember feeling a kind of existential angst as I came to realise that actually not all things were ultimately 'understandable' from 'universals truths' despite any amount of effort or brilliance. That actually one could spend one's entire life in the pursuit of trying to understand something and still not arrive at any kind of 'universal truth'. This was exactly the same time I 'got into' and enthused by 'computers and computing' and the two things are directly connected. For me, here was an entire 'realm' that was definitive, binary and thus ultimately understandable. Whatever the behaviour of a computer, no matter how baffling, how complex and regardless of if I personally had the ability to do so, every and any behaviour was ultimately knowable and understandable and eventually reduced down to a 0 or 1 in a given register. This to me then became the 'antidote' to and haven against the angst I felt at coming to realise the real world was not like this, that there were things, many things, maybe even most of the most important things, that were just not knowable or understandable and would not be so in my lifetime or possibly ever.

I have been using on-line forums for just about as long as such things have existed. I have a personal interest in them in general terms in theory and in practice. In the question 'can changing the ways by which people can interact, lead to different results of that interaction'. In fact I have in the past even written an article for the Telegraph that touches on this subject specifically in terms of 'forum communities' based around being a customer of a given company. My views of forums and specifically on the question of can changing how we are able to interact change the results of that interaction, have indeed evolved considerably over time but my point is I have had a long term interest in forums. From my earliest experiences of using forums the phenomenon of ending up 'clashing' with a given poster, of seemingly being unable to either understand what they were saying and why or be able to get across what I was trying to say and why became apparent to me. I developed a simple way of trying to deal with this , which was to make efforts to meet such people in person , face to face, if possible, in the hope that doing so could and would if not end the 'clashes' on the forum at least would reduce the 'heat' and increase the 'light'. Over the years I have had maybe 5 such meetings with people under these circumstances. 4 of those were I would say successful. I gained a better understanding of the other person and they of me and subsequent clashes on the forum did have less 'heat' and more 'light' on both sides as a result. The exception was when I met up with an individual, who openly boasted to me, proud of the fact, that there was no on-line thread or discussion that they could not 'drag down' such that any understanding of anything by anyone could be gained from it. I was speechless at the time and am still dumbstruck to this day with this idea. The idea that someone could actual want to be in a discussion with the objective of not just making their position impossible to be understood, but also anyone else's as well and to be boastful of an ability to do this, was and is so fundamentally and diametrically opposed to the core of who I am as a person.

For me one of the most basic mechanisms to understanding, if not the single most useful mechanism, is via discussion, debate and argument. The very process of trying to explain and elucidate a given position to another person drives my own understanding of that position as much as trying to understand their position in turn does. I actually hate not understanding, I want to understand am driven by trying to do so. So for example me reply and questions to acp2010 here were genuine attempts to try and understand what he is saying, for currently I do not understand that and I want to understand it and still have a sense of frustration that I have not been able to so far. There is no doubt that my understanding of many GC's position on Cyprus has increased massively from years of discussion, debate and argument on forums like this one. Just as my understanding of my own position has evolved and changed and clarified and increased likewise directly as a result of such discussion.

This is why to me the idea of using such discussion with an intent and objective of trying to undermine and destroy understanding rather than increase and refine it is an anathema to me. This is why I think GiG's behaviour here, as far as it is, or I perceive it to be, motivated by active attempts to create more 'heat' and decrease 'light' generically 'drives me crazy' so much more so than it seemingly does other people.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:19 pm

You should approach things with an open mind. It's not only about dueling to prove you are 'right' because it hurts when you are 'wrong'.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby Pyrpolizer » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:43 pm

erolz66 wrote:The exception was when I met up with an individual, who openly boasted to me, proud of the fact, that there was no on-line thread or discussion that they could not 'drag down' such that any understanding of anything by anyone could be gained from it. I was speechless at the time and am still dumbstruck to this day with this idea.


Shocking ! Was that in Cyprus or abroad?
Generally I don't think anyone can effectively do that.I would be interested to hear of the details-of how presumably they could do it(as what as a group or as indivuduals?) if you may.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:02 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Shocking ! Was that in Cyprus or abroad? Generally I don't think anyone can effectively do that.I would be interested to hear of the details-of how presumably they could do it(as what as a group or as indivuduals?) if you may.


It was on a forum related to Cyprus, the north I am afraid and specifically expats (or carpet baggers if you prefer). The person in question primary aim in posting on the forum was commercial, they sold internet provision and TC services of various kinds. At the time I had no commercial interests myself in the provision of internet in the North or TV services. I did however have knowledge and understanding of things 'internet'. I ended up 'clashing' with this person because they frequently were 'economical with the truth' about such things and always specifically in ways that tried to cast their services in a better light vs others. If and when they were challenged , they would drive the discussion in to ever more technical aspects, forcing ever more detailed and laborious efforts to unravel those technicalities to a general audience. This at first confused me but after meeting the individual concerned it became clear that decreasing understanding generally was a specific tactic and objective of this person. there belief being that it was better for them commercially if no one could actually understand anything thus allowing them much 'license' in what they could claim to their customers about their services and competing ones.

The forum is no longer active but it is still viewable. If you are really interested pm me and ill try and dig out some examples for you.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby Sotos » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:18 pm

We will probably never understand the universe... we can just make theories that match our observations without ever being certain about anything. The human brain is one of the most complicated and least understood things that we know about in our universe.... understanding why exactly a person behaves in a certain way is impossible... not even that person himself/herself knows the exact reasons! But your reply doesn't really answer the question why you focus so much on GiG. Have a look at some of the posts of MrH... the guy is a pathological liar... not just about past events but he even makes up stories about present events! Then we have GR who thinks that Cyprus is the center of the universe... he will make arguments like "Greeks did not exist before 1821 because there was no Greece" or he would confuse language with scripts and he would try to base an argument on this even though I explained to him in a very clear way several times that language and writing systems are two different things and that the same language can be written using different scripts. He refuses to understand this basic thing. And then there are posters such as repulsivewarrior and tsukui... whose posts make little to no sense most of the time (but somehow they seem to understand each other!). So why do you concentrate on GiG to such a degree? I think the root of the cause is that you just don't like her! And some of the things she says are made to annoy you intentionally because she doesn't like you! If she was using the same kind of arguments to support a position that you agreed with you would still not agree with her methods but you wouldn't be annoyed to such a degree by her ;)
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby Pyrpolizer » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:34 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Shocking ! Was that in Cyprus or abroad? Generally I don't think anyone can effectively do that.I would be interested to hear of the details-of how presumably they could do it(as what as a group or as indivuduals?) if you may.


It was on a forum related to Cyprus, the north I am afraid and specifically expats (or carpet baggers if you prefer). The person in question primary aim in posting on the forum was commercial, they sold internet provision and TC services of various kinds. At the time I had no commercial interests myself in the provision of internet in the North or TV services. I did however have knowledge and understanding of things 'internet'. I ended up 'clashing' with this person because they frequently were 'economical with the truth' about such things and always specifically in ways that tried to cast their services in a better light vs others. If and when they were challenged , they would drive the discussion in to ever more technical aspects, forcing ever more detailed and laborious efforts to unravel those technicalities to a general audience. This at first confused me but after meeting the individual concerned it became clear that decreasing understanding generally was a specific tactic and objective of this person. there belief being that it was better for them commercially if no one could actually understand anything thus allowing them much 'license' in what they could claim to their customers about their services and competing ones.

The forum is no longer active but it is still viewable. If you are really interested pm me and ill try and dig out some examples for you.


Oh I see, thx.
Reading your article at the Telegram of how companies should encourage forums/or groups I was about to ask you whether you were sure the companies would REALLY be interested in anything that might reveal aspects of "bad quality" for their products. I didn't write it though as I was too lazy to do it :wink:
Marketing/advertisements generally rely on deception. As we say in GC dialect "εγω στραωνο τζιαι πουλω τζαι σου αμπλεπε τζαι 'γοραζε"--> I turn people blind to sell, and you keep your eyes open to buy"
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:58 pm

Sotos wrote:Have a look at some of the posts of MrH... the guy is a pathological liar... not just about past events but he even makes up stories about present events!


To be honest I am not particularly familiar with this poster. I will 'look them up' when I get a chance.

Sotos wrote:Then we have GR who thinks that Cyprus is the center of the universe...


Now GR I am familiar with and indeed if I were asked to name another poster who showed a stubborn ability to deny obvious reality in the face of any and all evidence, then my example would be my 'discussion' I had with GR (a long long time ago now and actually on a different forum) about the UN 'core document' re Cyprus. Core documents are documents written by a given country and submitted to the UN. GR insisted that the one on Cyprus was a UN document written by the UN about Cyprus. That the core document was written By the RoC was obvious to any one just from reading it. However no amount of UN sourced documents that explicitly explained and defined what 'core documents' were and who wrote them, no pointing out of the UN document number showing the one on Cyprus as a 'core document', no amount of giving examples of other countries UN core documents, would budge GR from he insistence that the document was written by the Un aboput Cyprus and was thus expressing the UN's position or view on Cyprus. I often recall this discussion with GR when struggling here with GiG.

However in my experience and from my perspective GR did not / does not do this with the same regularity and intensity with which GiG does.

Sotos wrote:And then there are posters such as repulsivewarrior ..


Indeed I often struggle to understand what he is posting about - to this day I am not sure of Greeks and "Greeks" which is which for example. However I have absolutely no sense that he posts with an intent of reducing understanding or that he has ever just blankly denied obvious undeniable reality , regardless of any or all evidence, over an over and over.

Sotos wrote:and tsukui...


Yeah I just do not understand the vast majority of anything this person posts - and that is to me not annoying or frustrating in the way systematic denial of actual reality is.

Sotos wrote: So why do you concentrate on GiG to such a degree? I think the root of the cause is that you just don't like her! And some of the things she says are made to annoy you intentionally because she doesn't like you! If she was using the same kind of arguments to support a position that you agreed with you would still not agree with her methods but you wouldn't be annoyed to such a degree by her ;)


I really do not dislike GiG as a person, it is the behaviours that I dislike. There is one thing she has done / does that does make me dislike her as a person but that is fairly 'irrelevant' in terms of over all volume as it only crops up occasionally - maybe an handful of times in the years we have both been here.

Inevitably given our respective perspectives and the the length of time we have been here and volume of posts, I do 'notice' GiG more than most other posters here. I can not think of an example where we both support the same position and she used all the same 'techniques' - denial of actual reality, mis and out of context quoting with intent, straw man constructs with intent and all the rest - in order to be able to test you theory. I can say I have seen her use such techniques on others about positions I have no view or position on myself and watching her do so on such subjects still drive me nuts.

Over all I am still of the opinion that no other single poster displays the behaviours that drive me nuts as consistently and relentlessly as GiG does. I may well be wrong about this and actually I am the kind of person that would love to have the time and tools and ability to do some kind of detailed analysis of users posts here, measured against some kind of objective scale, for no other reason that to know if I am mistaken about this or not. However I do not have these things, if such can even exist, and so I rely on my best estimation from the limited and skewed and patchy information I do have.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby erolz66 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:04 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Reading your article at the Telegram ...


Er Telegraph not Telegram :)

Pyrpolizer wrote:of how companies should encourage forums/or groups I was about to ask you whether you were sure the companies would REALLY be interested in anything that might reveal aspects of "bad quality" for their products. I didn't write it though as I was too lazy to do it :wink:
Marketing/advertisements generally rely on deception. As we say in GC dialect "εγω στραωνο τζιαι πουλω τζαι σου αμπλεπε τζαι 'γοραζε"--> I turn people blind to sell, and you keep your eyes open to buy"


That article was written by me in 2001 - 15 years ago now. The internet was just reaching 'mass market' around that time, facebook and twitter and such like either did not exist or were tiny niche entities used by a handful of people and my views were based more on 'hope' as to how things would evolve than 'experience'. 15 years on and after much experience , some of it from the 'other side of the fence' (as an employee of an ISP trying to interact with customers via on-line fora and similar mediums) my views today are considerably different from those expressed back in 2001.
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Re: Why being wrong really hurts

Postby Sotos » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:24 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Reading your article at the Telegram ...


Er Telegraph not Telegram :)

Pyrpolizer wrote:of how companies should encourage forums/or groups I was about to ask you whether you were sure the companies would REALLY be interested in anything that might reveal aspects of "bad quality" for their products. I didn't write it though as I was too lazy to do it :wink:
Marketing/advertisements generally rely on deception. As we say in GC dialect "εγω στραωνο τζιαι πουλω τζαι σου αμπλεπε τζαι 'γοραζε"--> I turn people blind to sell, and you keep your eyes open to buy"


That article was written by me in 2001 - 15 years ago now. The internet was just reaching 'mass market' around that time, facebook and twitter and such like either did not exist or were tiny niche entities used by a handful of people and my views were based more on 'hope' as to how things would evolve than 'experience'. 15 years on and after much experience , some of it from the 'other side of the fence' (as an employee of an ISP trying to interact with customers via on-line fora and similar mediums) my views today are considerably different from those expressed back in 2001.


With the internet people are much less "blind" when it comes to the products they buy... at least the people who do their research before they buy something. Companies can no longer hide the flaws of their products and if they attempt to censor bad reviews not only they will fail but this will harm the image of their whole company.
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