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Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Mon May 02, 2016 3:48 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:page after page of repeated garbage that neither of you has fully understood,


Yet you are the one who called an official public EU commission press release 'not the EU'. You are the one who used a document that was not an evaluation report , covering a period that did not include that in which the evaluation report on Greece was completed and that itself explicitly said did not cover the evaluation report on Greece and claim that this prior report, not itself an evaluation report WAS the evaluation report on Greece, You then used this blatant , proven disortion for months of subsequent untrue claims.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:material that is being ignored in all the EU action plans put in place,


Again just totally untrue. The process of Greece having been found to be serious deficient, of the EU Council passing an implementing decision giving Greece three month is all the EU 'action plans' and 'roadmap' for getting Schengen back on track. It is not the ONLY things in these road maps but to claim that there is no mention of the process re Greece specifically that started with the evaluation report finding Greece to be seriously deficient, is juts yet one more of your lies and distortion of objective provable fact.

GreekIslandGirl wrote: months of pouring out slogans or propaganda that are baseless


To say that the EU has said Greece was found to be seriously neglecting its obligations in an evaluation report on Greece, when the EU has said Greece was found to be seriously neglecting its obligations in an evaluation report on Greece, is not a 'slogan' is not 'propaganda' and nor is such a claim baseless. It is just reporting actual factual reality. What is "months of pouring out slogans or propaganda that are baseless" in the face of the EU publicly stating Greece was found to be seriously neglecting its obligations in an evaluation report on Greece, is to claim Greece was not criticised, frontex was criticised and all your other months of distortion after distortion.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:in the face of the number of EU countries that are now coming out to do their bit and share the responsibility that was the factor found to be deficient in the JOINT management of the EU external border and now,


Yes the same countries who overwhelmingly voted in the EU Council implementing decision to place a three month deadline on Greece to deal with 49 specific identified failing of and by Greece. A decision Greece was the OBLY country to vote against.

GreekIslandGirl wrote: after you and your pal jointly exhibited schizophrenic rage directed at one innocent country, you have the temerity to call someone else unhinged?


What is unhinged is your systematic denial of reality. The EU found in an evaluation report that Greece was seriously neglecting it obligations. This is exactly and explicitly what the EU stated the schengen evaluation report concluded. Your systematic attempts over months and months to just deny this reality because you do not like it, is the behaviour of someone who less than normally hinged.

GreekIslandGirl wrote: STOP TROLLING


Translation - stop using reality and facts and evidence against me when I try and promote the idea that Greeks are better than any other people in the world by using all my standard tricks and techniques of distortion.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borde

Postby supporttheunderdog » Mon May 02, 2016 5:09 pm

Here for information is an official EU document containing the official EU position on the GREEK plan to rectify the serious, deficiencies identified....it even uses those words. It was issed on 13th April. I understand we are not likely to get anything more until 12th May .

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/european-agenda-migration/proposal-implementation-package/docs/20160412/communication_assessment_greece_action_plan_en.pdf

wCOMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE COUNCIL
Assessment of Greece's Action Plan to remedy the serious deficiencies identified in the 2015 evaluation on the application of the Schengen acquis in the field of management of the external border


What I have real trouble understanding is on what basis Greece could be preparing such a plan, to deal with serious deficiencies, if, as claimed, GREECE was not seriously deficient? There is a real dichtomoty here, between the reality promoted by the great infallible gIG, as she seeks to protray herself, and the reality promoted by the EU and contained in this and other EU documents.

So what us reality here? GIG's or the EU's?

I think I prefer the official EU position. It is at least consistent in stating Greece was seriously deficient, a position Greece appears to agree as Greece has, as required by the implementing decision of 12th Feb produced a plan.

Why, oh why would they do that otherwise?

Or is this official report the propaganda produced by a schizophrenic,malong with all the other relevent EU documents WHICH ALL SAY THE SAME THING?

Even the 8th Bienniel report issued on 15th December used the words Serious Deficiency in the context of the evaluation of Greece in relation to the possibility that such might be found once the expert assessments mentioned in the 8th Bienniel report as underway were completed.

No doubt we will be told we/it is wrong, but it is all there in black and white. The plan itself, or certain aspects, had to be sent back for clarifications of various sorts.

Yet still she denies these words were said or if they were that by various twists and distortions we have to read into them words and meanings not there, to make them fit her own illusory view of matters, rather than relying on the plain and ordinary meanings of the words. It is a performance Humpty Dumpty himself would struggle to match....

I just wonder what sort of diagnosis in DSM V covers that... A complete denial of reality...
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Mon May 02, 2016 5:39 pm

As early as 2014, Frontex's attempts to evade responsibility for EU border management were being questioned:

With the 'Europeanisation' of border management which started with Schengen cooperation, national sovereignty over border management has decreased.
Conditions for entering the EU including the controls border guards have to perform are now embedded in EU law (the Schengen Borders Code). In addition, the operational side of the policy i.e. the practical implementation of EU rules by national border guards, is subject to an ever growing coordination process led by Frontex.

The rapid Europeanisation of border management over the last 25 years has increased....

Despite Frontex's position rejecting such a responsibility, it is no longer clear whether this position can be maintained, as the paper demonstrates.

EU's accession to the ECHR and impact on Frontex responsibility:
At present, the EU is not signatory of the ECHR, (?) therefore only the responsibility of the contracting states may be engaged before the ECtHR. It will be different with the forthcoming accession of the EU to the ECHR. This accession will raise further questions, and challenge the Union's competence and responsibility for Frontex operations.


http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub ... rights.pdf
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Mon May 02, 2016 6:27 pm

What you cannot but still try to deny is that even within reduced role of the member states under Schengen, as in place in November 2015 , where at that time The member states still retained responsibility of the managenent of their external borders, an inspection took place following which the the EU used the words seriously deficient and/or serious deficiencies on the part of and/or GREECE in the performance of its legally defined duties in border management.

You can wriggle and twist all you like but the use if those words by the EU is an undeniable historical truth. They were officially used last on 13th April.

Now you Can post as much as you like about the changing role but nothing you can post will alter that historical fact that whether you like it or not the EU used the words. Neither Erolz nor I have used any different words to those of the EU. As you yourself say, we are not the EU, so we are not personally responsible for the use of the words by the EU, nor have we had to look outside of the EU Official papers, including eg EU regulation EC2007/2004 as ammended (or even unamended, as the relevent paragraph 4, definining the primacy and primsry responsibility of the member nations in external border management, remained unchanged, when the evaluation takes place.

Throughout what you have done is thrown into the equation the phrase" shared border management " but in complete disregard to how the sharing worked and what FRONTEX's defined and above all restricted role was. Your position has been contradictory, since you argued that Frontex was patrolling "for years" and then in support of your position posted a document and even highlighted a part which accurately reflected FRONTEX's legal inability to patrol as all border management rested with the member nations with external borders.

As for the words used, you have sought to rewrite them to import blame on to other simply because it fits within your delusions, and I think you are liklely suffering from clinical delusions as despite clear or reasonable contradictory evidence regarding its veracity, ie the relevent EU documents, you seek to deny that veracity. The only party named is Greece and the words used are serious deficiency.

End of story.

No doubt not end of debate as no doubt we will see you posting ad nauseum a number of documents which you think support your position but which cannot detract from the EU statements about GREECE And no one else being seriously deficient. The EU words, not mine or Erolz.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Mon May 02, 2016 6:33 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_4512_frontext_and_the_respect_of_fundamental_rights.pdf


I think you are confusing an outdated discussion document from a body that is not the EU, as being some sort of official view or opinion of the EU. Ironic (and for ironic read - blatant hypocrisy) really given that when faced with an official public statement by the EU Commission themselves on the conclusions of a Schengen Evaluation report on Greece, conducted as per EU Law, that came to conclusion you did not like, you tried to present such an official EU Commission announcement as being

EU debate sites are NOT the same as the EU Commission

and
are debates/speculation/propaganda such as yours - and NOT the EU COMMISSION.

and
In fact if you look at the report [meaning the report that explicitly said itself was not the evaluation report on Greece and did not cover any details of that report, because it had not been concluded at that time and you consistently treid to make out WAS the evaluation report on Greece because such disortion suited your needs] instead of your discussion site


and on and on and on.

Now YOU present a discussion document from an independent 'think tank', that is NOT the EU (Commission or otherwise) and who's own mission statement says they are 'dedicated to fostering European integration through', amongst other things, debate and 'challenging European decision-makers at all levels'.

Even THEN, ignoring your blatant rank hypocrisy and inconsistency the document you now try and twist and distort to suit your needs actually undermines your previous claims more than it supports them, as could easily be shown. However what would be the point of showing this. You deny the reality of what an official EU Commission announcement plainly said, denouncing such as 'not the EU commission' and a 'debating site', so what impact would any actual evidence from something that IS a debating site and is NOT the EU Commission or the EU at all, have if it does not suit your propaganda ?

Same old same old.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Mon May 02, 2016 8:14 pm

Yes, same old, same old. Your Greek-hatred prevents you from wanting to know the truth.

Too comfortable living off what Greeks created, too guilty to enjoy - you want to destroy Greeks - completely!

However, much as you hate to hear it .... the EU is improving Frontex because .... guess what .... it is Frontex that manages the EU external borders and NOT Greece alone!
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Mon May 02, 2016 8:27 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Yes, same old, same old. Your Greek-hatred prevents you from wanting to know the truth.
Too comfortable living off what Greeks created, too guilty to enjoy - you want to destroy Greeks - completely!


Yes I know for you the whole world is divided into those who accept your core belief and relentless evangelising that Greeks are better than any other people in the world and those who do not accept this as a fundamental given are thus, indeed have to be, Greek haters. That is your problem not mine. My problem is I can not just sit back and say nothing to your systematic distortion of reality to fit and support your warped world view, divorced as it is from any and all actual reality. You will never accept that Greece or Greeks can be failing at anything and I can not accept gross and blatant distortion of actual reality by you to serve your need to believe and evangelise here that Greece and Greeks are the best.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:However, much as you hate to hear it .... the EU is improving Frontex because .... guess what .... it is Frontex that manages the EU external borders and NOT Greece alone!


Back in the real world, the EU is strengthening Frontex AND using the legal mechanism within the Schengen acquis as it currently exists to do all that it can to ensure Greece also meets it's obligations going forward, as it was identified to have not been doing so at the time of the evaluation report on Greece, in order to avoid having to use Article 26 in regards to Greece.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Mon May 02, 2016 8:55 pm

erolz66 wrote:... press release 'not the EU'.


Just as you once claimed to be the voice of the EU, just as you once claimed to threaten Greece with 'sanctions' and 'expulsion' as some EC/EU official, or learned journalist, I have learned to take your delusional personalities with a pinch of salt.

Of course "a press release" to the press is not the same as the EU. You are a complete lunatic!
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Mon May 02, 2016 10:36 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Of course "a press release" to the press is not the same as the EU. You are a complete lunatic!


No a lunatic is someone who claims that an EU press release publicly announcing the conclusions of an official Evaluation report on Greece, carried out as per EU law, is 'not the EU'. A lunatic is someone who tries to carry on claiming that such is 'not the EU' even after an EU Council implementing decision, as voted on by the heads of state of the EU member countries, sets EU policy based on that same conclusion announced previously. A lunatic is someone who in the face of an official EU evaluation report on Greece that concludes Greece is seriously neglecting it's obligations, claims for month after month after month that the EU never said Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations.

A hypocritical lunatic is someone who first tries to argue that an EU Commission press release publicly announcing the conclusions of an official Evaluation report on Greece is 'not the EU', is 'not policy', is a 'debating site' and then goes on to use (distort by selective quoting) a document that is not from the EU, is not EU policy or an expressed view of the EU and is from a 'debating site' (independent think tank) as 'proof' that the EU said in the evaluation report on Greece that 'frontex' was seriously deficient' even though it actually said plainly and clearly Greece was and did NOT say Frontex was. That is the level of your lunacy and hypocrisy and it is nothing new. It is what you have always done here on this forum.

You are simply divorced from reality. You always have been. Including the reality that you can clearly be seen here to be so divorced by your own words and actions, time after time after time.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Mon May 02, 2016 10:47 pm

But press releases by official EU press offices made on behalf of an EU entity do represent the official position of the EU and in particular when the press release references and may even include a link to an official docuement, such as a decision of the commissission or the council. They often contain an official's official coments, or an extract from them.

They can be reasonably relied upon to that end.

More reliable still are the official papers refered to.

That must be distinguished from unatributable comments from unnamed officials made to journslists or press releases made by other unofficial bodies such as think tanks or lobby groups or individuals, and from journalistic interpretation of the official press statements or document.

Here, in the context of the evaluation of Greece carried out in November 2013 all of the officialy released documents. Including official EU press releases, and the implenting decisions and other official EU papers since 27tg Jan to 13th April consistently used the phrase "serious deficiciencies" or "seriously deficient". Furthet it was the EU thst has stated in a number of pspers since 15th December that if Serious deficiencies were identified then it was open to the EU to require GREECE to produce s plan to remedy then, under article 19(2) SBC and if the plan was not effective that action might be taken to require reimposition of some internal border control. This is not Erolz or I saying it but the EU, but you seek to demonise us as though we are responsible. You endow us with powers we have never claimed. Another of your distortions.
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